View Full Version : Asking for a raise
Diesel
10-09-2003, 05:49 PM
Situation Background: When I started my current job, their offer was a little low, so I asked for more money. They said they couldn't go any higher than what they were offering me, so I tried negotiating for a more attractive offer. What was finally agreed upon was the same starting salary, an extra week's vacation for a total of 3 weeks, and that I would get a performance review and raise (if warranted) at 6 months instead of their standard 12 months. Since I was taking a pay cut from my previous job, I felt this was fair in that I at least had the prospect of getting paid a fairer salary within 6 months.
Company Background: I work for a network consulting firm as a full-time employee (not a consultant). The network firm is partially owned by my boss, and his partner is financially backing the company, including our salaries. His partner is a lawyer who owns a law firm. Part of their agreement is that the law firm is our primary customer. Since the lawyer is the financial side of the business, he is the one who determines raises, bonuses, etc.
Present situation: I'm 2 weeks past my 14th month at this job, and have yet to have a performance review, much less a raise. Since my 6 month period, I've asked my boss to address the raise issue at least a dozen times. Each time, he's said I deserve one, but he has to bring it up with the lawyer. According to my boss, the lawyer has responded negatively to the raise issue, in that he says he "can't deal with raises right now" or "the firm doesn't have enough money coming in right now". He hasn't actually denied raises... he's just pushed the topic off the table.
It got so frustrating for me to continually hound my boss to represent my case to the lawyer that I eventually just stopped asking because I knew I'd be hitting a brick wall.
Now, however, I'm getting fairly aggrevated that the money situation hasn't resolved itself. The law firm is spending an obscene amount of money on technology, but hasn't put any of that money towards the technical staff who make everything work. It is no longer my intention to stay at this job any longer than until a new opportunity presents itself. However, I figure that while I am here, I should be earning what I deserve.
I've basically decided at this point that I'm going to give my boss one last chance to do what he should have done a long time ago, and address the issue with the lawyer. I'm going to bring the issue to his attention one more time, and if I don't find it taken care of within a reasonable amount of time (1 week), then I'm going to go over his head and bring it up with the lawyer myself. I honestly have my doubts as to whether or not my boss has ever brought my case up to the lawyer, and I know for a fact that he never revealed to the lawyer our agreement of a 6 month review period.
However, when I went to bring it up to him today, I was unable to find a situation where we could talk in private (and this really isn't an issue that should be dealt with in front of other people). He has also now told me that he's taking tomorrow off, and with Monday being a holiday, the earliest possible date to talk to him would be Tuesday, which is looking like a very full day. I will be out of the office on Wednesday for a doctor's appointment, so if it doesn't get taken care of on Tuesday, I won't be able to address it until Thursday, which leaves him one day to try to get himself squeezed into the lawyer's schedule.
My question is, should I wait until Thursday to bring it up in person, or should I email him the request? I was planning on emailing him anyway, following the private discussion, if for no other reason than to generate an official record of the request, but I don't know if it's proper business etiquete to issue the request via email, or if it's more proper to make the request in person.
Any thoughts?
Huh ... bad situation ... Boss ... partially owner ...
Ok ... I do not think that e-mail/lawyer is right turn ... cuz ... it is rather destructive position ... I mean ... once You stand on the lawyer path - it is not easy turn it back ... and ... if You will try to turn it back ... boss will think that You give-up ...
However, if You are planning to change Your job in several months - the e-mail/lawyer can be good decision, cuz ... it really can to rize You salary and it will be You start salary on Your new place.
So ... I think that it is much better to do this in personal - several times ... any Your completed job/ education/ new client - You should to talk with Your boss about it, about Your advantages ... and about salary too ... Usually it is works ... not imediately, but it ... as it saying - the water drop breaks rock ...
Good luck!
Alyth
10-09-2003, 07:49 PM
I think it's more appropriate to talk to him in person. although giving him all those chances in the past has proven vain, you are still proving your professionalism. I dont' know however if this is a good idea but maybe tell him it's really important to you that you get the answer to your question sooner rather than later and if you don't hear from him in about a week you will go talk to the lawyer yourself. That might get him to actually go talk to the lawyer so he doesn't appear lazy to you or the lawyer.
:banghead:
You DO deserve not only a raise for the work you've been doing, but to get the respect of an answer of why you haven't gotten even a review six it's way past your 6 month period.
:whip:
Diesel
10-09-2003, 08:10 PM
I'm not actually sure I want to bring it to his attention that I plan on going to the lawyer if I don't get an answer, because knowing my boss, he'll see that as an ultimatum and get defensive. I honestly don't think he'd react negatively if I just went over his head, but if I said to him "Please bring it up, or let me know if you're not going to and I'll go to the lawyer myself", he'd take it badly.
It defies logic, but it's probably true in his case. He's very macho and egotistical when it comes to his "honor", and I've seen him get nasty with customers who somehow have offended his sense of bravado.
lobo> Maybe I wasn't clear, but I understand what you're saying. I HAVE brought it up with him, repeatedly, and I feel like I'm either being ignored or getting the runaround without him actually bringing it up. Apparently, he feels it's acceptable to just placate us with a non-response than to actually bring an important business issue up with his partner.
On Today @ 09:10 PM Diesel had this to say in Post #4 (http://www.aliensoup.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=88110#po st88110)
I HAVE brought it up with him, repeatedly, and I feel like I'm either being ignored or getting the runaround without him actually bringing it up.
Yeah ... Worstest case ... full ignorance ... You should to bring a lawyer and ... start for looking new job :(
You know, whe lawyer can made 3-party dispute and he can to fix Your boss opinion ... anyway ... in this situation you should make Your time .
koehiir
10-09-2003, 09:21 PM
Ugly situation. I give reviews every 6 months to my employees. I have an open door policy with them, of course in my job I'm always walking by them and open rooms, soit's easy to grab me and hop into a private conversation.
With your time table I would e-mail that you need to meet on Thursday at X and such time. Have your proposal ready, this raise on this date with next evaluation at this date and ask for a next mtg (1 week) so he can discuss this with his boss.
I hope it works out, if not f*** em {pardon the french} and find someone who appreciates the work you do.
Good Luck.
Diesel
10-09-2003, 09:27 PM
Oh, btw, been looking for a while now, strenously since my 8 month period or so. The IT market is in bad shape right now, but seems to be getting better.
The money here at this job, even with a significant raise, wouldn't get me close to where I should be in the market, so this is more of a "make things better while I'm still here, but I'm still planning on leaving with the first reasonable offer" kind of thing.
On the latest batch of IT salary surveys, I'm about $8k per year below the low end of the scale for someone with half my experience and certifications.
monsieurjohn
10-09-2003, 10:45 PM
man, this is a busily growing thread... as such, i don't have time to erad it all, so someone may have already said this, but in my opinion you should ask in person
it's a whole lot easier for them to turn you down over e-mail than when you're standing right there staring at them.
sorta like asking someone out over e-mail.. bad idea :lol:
I like the Idea of trying to set a meeting on a particular date, I think that asking in person is more important, although I would keep some sort of paper trail. If all else fails, just go to the lawyer person and ask that way, making clear that you had an agreement when you started working there and it hasnt been fulfilled . . .
<sidenote>i wonder if there is grounds for breach of contract there?</sidenote>
Either way I hope it works out for you
mthrlangl
10-10-2003, 09:05 AM
I personally say go for e-mail. Granted, talking to him in person might be more professional, but in the intrest of getting your full case on the table, I think it'd be easier to email him the story and let him read it at his leisure rather than trying to talk to him on the run. I'm assuming that you didn't get the whole raise/review thing in writing, huh? Because if you had, I don't think this would be such a problem. (Or you might at least have firmer ground to stand on.) Best of luck in a sucky situation, Dan.
moonsee
10-10-2003, 11:57 AM
Wow, that boss sounds familiar ;)
I'd say go for the email. If this was the first time you had brought this up, definately in person, but since it has been discussed many times, the email will act as a sort of reminder. Its not like you'll really be passing on any new information to him.
koehiir
10-19-2003, 10:38 PM
DD - how did it go? Has it gone?
Diesel
10-20-2003, 06:06 AM
Well, on Tuesday, I kept trying to get an opportunity to talk to him in private, and he either got busy right when I wanted to talk to him, or someone else intruded on our discussion, so it never happened.
Apparently, he placed a higher priority on finding a way to tease the lone Red Sox fan in the office over fulfilling my meeting request. :(
On Wednesday, I had a doctor appointment, so I did a half-day in the NJ office, and I was out sick on Thurs. and Fri., so I'm aiming for today to corner him into having the meeting.
monsieurjohn
10-20-2003, 07:41 AM
good luck!
he sounds like a jerk, teasing red sox fans
Diesel
10-20-2003, 03:55 PM
I brought it up with him today, and he said he would bring it up when the lawyer is in this Wednesday. However, he said it in a way that makes me think he's probably not going to.
I'm going to send him a follow-up email "reminder" tomorrow afternoon to "remind" him to bring it up when he meets with the lawyer on Wednesday. At the very least, that will establish a formal request (and subsequent official record) to bring the issue to the attention of the laywer, and I can then fall back on that should it not get done.
monsieurjohn
10-20-2003, 04:21 PM
good plan
BCC the lawyer, heh...
Good Luck Dan, hopefully he comes through and it all ends there
Diesel
10-22-2003, 10:49 AM
Well, I sent him the email yesterday afternoon. It came off as just a friendly reminder, since he was out of the office yesterday.
It might have helped though, because when I came in today, he mentioned that he had spoken to the lawyer, and that the lawyer wanted formal documented evaluations, so my boss is going to get some software that one of our clients has and apparently do it formally.
How long this process is going to take, I have no idea. :(
monsieurjohn
10-22-2003, 03:40 PM
wow! that sounds somewhat promising, at least.
bust out the cautious optimism :D
Alyth
10-22-2003, 05:40 PM
Good luck Dan! Maybe a little note on the computer was all he needed. :woot:
I don't understand why this had to be the way to get him to do what he should have been doing all along, but at least it seems to be moving along now. :rolleyes:
koehiir
10-24-2003, 11:21 PM
Hopefully this is not another stalling task. Who installs the software, if it's you at least we know it will be done right. If the lawyer does it, the computers may be down for awhile - increasing your work as the keyboards will be locked out or some such thing!!
good luck
Diesel
11-20-2003, 11:24 AM
An update: *I* went and got the software for him 3 weeks ago, around the 4th, I think, and only because I was in the area of the other office.
I think he finally got around to installing it last week or so.
So, I'm still waiting for something, anything, to happen with this. He's also out this entire week for a training course.
Diesel
11-24-2003, 10:47 AM
Over the weekend, I thought of a very loaded question I can ask my boss to move this process along.
I plan on asking him tomorrow "What can I do to help you move this process along?" If he responds with "nothing", then there's no excuse for it being held up. If he responds with something else, I can then do whatever it is he needs, and there's no excuse for it being held up.
It not only gets my point across of wanting to have it done already, but it also casts me in a helpful light rather than an aggressive one, so he would have nothing to get defensive about.
WaterB
11-24-2003, 01:26 PM
i'd just go over his head and go to the lawyer directly.. personally i wouldn't give a s**t if your boss got offended or not
Diesel
11-24-2003, 02:14 PM
Well, I laid the loaded question on him today, and he did delegate one of his tasks to me, so if he gets it done this week, that'll be fine.
If it takes much longer than this, I may have to go over his head, because this is getting ridiculous.
Diesel
03-09-2004, 10:43 AM
BTW, for anyone interested, they just now have given me a written review. It's not flowering and glowing, but it's not bad.
Actual pay raise may come this week, but I'm not expecting much. No matter what, it's just not going to be enough to keep me here under the conditions.
Good! I am glad to hear about rise! :beer:
monsieurjohn
03-09-2004, 11:46 AM
holy crap :eek:
incredible that some money is actually coming through though....
Diesel
03-09-2004, 12:07 PM
Dunno if and how much would be though.
They waited until they got their settlement check from a big case they tried, and their cut was reportedly about $20 million. Problem was that even before they processed the check, they informed us that over 75% of it was already allocated to other things. So, no one really has any idea as to how much is available, and what will be given to employees.
Again, I have my review... not a raise. Yet.
Hopefully, I'll find out more later today.
Diesel
03-10-2004, 02:55 PM
Update: We were informed that we would each be getting small bonuses, but that none of the IT staff will be getting any raises, because "our work did not warrant it". The desktop tech, who was on the chopping block as of the January, is now apparently the only one who's doing any work ("He's the only one who's work I'm happy with", said the lawyer), and if my boss wants to disband the company, he is free to do so.
I'm more upset at the fact that the lawyer took the cowards way out, and spoke to my boss, instead of to me directly. I was the only one present in the entire group of the two companies who was not extended the courtesy of a face-to-face meeting, and I have a feeling it's because the lawyer knows I would've ripped into him, so he took the cowards path and had my boss deliver the message. It doesn't surprise me, because I've come to expect nothing more from him than the cowardly approach, and I think he's afraid of any potential confrontation where he feels he will not be able to bully his way out of the situation.
Needless to say, the entire situation has me really ticked off, and I have every intention of living up to the expectations they have set for me with these actions.
monsieurjohn
03-10-2004, 03:04 PM
:eek: oh man, that's really bad.... you gotta get out of there, that's completely ridiculous
WaterB
03-10-2004, 04:24 PM
break something (email/web/file server.. presonally i'd take out the domain controller) then go home exactly at quitting time.. then show up an hr late the next day
break something (email/web/file server.. presonally i'd take out the domain controller) then go home exactly at quitting time.. then show up an hr late the next day
like he said he is going to do exactly what they pay him to do . . . which is pretty much what you described :)
koehiir
03-12-2004, 12:01 AM
not much to say, it's all been said before.
SwissSmiss
03-12-2004, 04:07 AM
I won't even bother with my opinion. Cause I just asked for one and was flat told no. Even though I had another job offer that would pay me more money. They didn't want to even try to keep me (big old corporate, not my immediate bosses). I ended up not taking the job because I thought the people there sucked. I doubt that is the last time that happens with me... I just got fed some crap ass policy line, and basically it seems that the way raises are acquired where I work and nothing to do with performance but with what corporate shells out to each district, all getting divied out all the way down the chain. It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Makes me that much more motivated to find a new job. And if I don't get a decent raise by performance appraisal (the only time raises can actually be gotten... apparently not even with job advancement...cause i haven't gotten SQUAT), I'm outta there whether I have something lined up or not.