A touchy subject, but debatable [Archive]

07-26-2001, 07:16 PM

I began discussing an idea for a group for gay adolescents at my job, and I got on the topic with a co-worker who ended up in almost a debate with me about homosexuality. I think I was pretty fair, although I stated my opinions stongly.
She appears to believe that the "impulses" need to be controlled, that certain life events may cause one to go in "that direction" - basically one has to learn and get to the roots of the "problem" and "work on redirecting and controlling those feelings" and being religious, etc...
I shared some stories and thoughts with her (i.e. a good friend who has known since he was four years old and feels he didnt't "choose this lifestyle"), also raising other questions about gay men who marry women to cover up their identity and later commit adultery with men, others who struggle with suicidal thoughts because they "can't stop being gay".
I do work quite closely with her, so I hope she has respect for what I said because although her thoughts were hard for me to digest and it made me burn up inside, all I can do is respect her opinion.
After our talk, she casually opened up an envelope (in front of me, hint hint) addressed to her from Exodus international ministries. This prompted me to visit their website, and I felt kind mystified and really weirded out about the whole thing. (like, this stuff actually exists?) I learned a lot from reading up on it, though. For one thing, The National Association of social workers doesn't agree with reparative therapy to "cure" homosexuality. Anyway, I wasn't sure if this belongs in Watercooler, but I wanted to share this with you and see if anyone had any thoughts on the subject.

mthrlangl

07-26-2001, 07:29 PM

<sidenote> I swear to God, I hate this computer. Every time the AC clicks on, I get the blue screen o' death. Argh. </sidenote>

For the most part, I agree with you, Mo. Generally, no sane person I know would willingly pursue such a difficult lifestyle. However, I think certain events can occur in a person's life to "push them in that direction," as your co-worker put it. For example, if a little girl's father molests her, I think it could turn her off men for life - whether out of disgust or fear or what-have-you. Or perhaps someone was "curious" and "experimented" and wound up liking it. Who knows.

I hate the people who use the Bible as a basis for gay-bashing. That is just the most ridiculous thing in the world. I went to a Christian school, and while they prolly wouldn't like me using this to defend gay-ness (they were very, very strict there), it makes a valid point: in the Old Testament, God was wrathful and judgemental and what-have-you. In the New Testament, He was loving and caring and all that good stuff. (As they put it, He didn't change, but His methods of getting through to us did.)

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"I want the life you think I have." ~ Dave Navarro

07-26-2001, 07:39 PM

I certainly can see environmental factors can contribute, but I just was shocked when I saw the website ( I think this was the one I had read about in Newsweek):

www.exodusintl.org (http://www.exodusintl.org)

spidergoolash

07-26-2001, 10:08 PM

i tend to believe you are born gay and that you don't "turn" gay - but that's just my personal opinion.

heh-heh. this topic reminds me of the day when i got into an argument w/the crossing guard who sits in front of our house on this subject.

there was a picture in the local paper of a gay couple going to the prom, i think. she commented on the fact that "it shouldn't be front page news" or something to that effect and i said "why not?" "it's not like there's anything wrong w/it."

it all went downhill from there http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol.gif

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"only a white man would build a fire for everyone to see."

resident spiderMOD "to know her is to FEAR her."

monsieurjohn

07-26-2001, 11:51 PM

i tend to agree with spidey taht someone is born gay, and doesn't "turn" gay - i would also say that a significant portion of people can't be defined to *have* an orientation until they reach a certain level of maturity.. there is a time when it is simply "too early to tell"

i don't personally take issue with gay people or their lifestyle, as long as none of them try to hit on me. the way i see it, nothing is going to change how anyone feels about anything, so there is no point in trying to deny what they're feeling or "fix" it... no one knows why they are the way they are, but the fact remains that they *are* the way they are.

so i think that any attempts to "fix" them are poorly thought out and pointless, and damaging to the people who are being "fixed"

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"I've never been sigged." - PsychoticIckyThing

"Maybe *this* is what 'cooties', the disease that every grade schooler is terrified of, yet knows not the symptoms of which, is!" - KNSinatra at 3:34 AM

jadedskies

07-27-2001, 01:54 AM

I agree with mj and spidey...

07-27-2001, 06:10 AM

Well apparently, she appears to be a believer in "controlling" herself and promoting Christ as a means of strength in controlling such "urges". As long as it does not interfere with her clients at work, so be it I guess.

[This message has been edited by Lil' Mo on July 27, 2001 at 07:11 AM]

mthrlangl

07-27-2001, 08:32 AM

How in the world does that woman think she's going to make people turn to Christ when all she does is persecute them. I mean, no one wants to hear "God hates you, now go to church you <insert derogatory comment here>."

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"I want the life you think I have." ~ Dave Navarro

meezercat

07-27-2001, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by monsieurjohn:
i don't personally take issue with gay people or their lifestyle, as long as none of them try to hit on me.

I don't really think you can fault a gay guy for trying to hit on you, any more than you can fault a straight guy for hitting on a woman. However, if you turned down a guy hitting on you, and he kept bothering you, then I could see getting PO'd. Just my two cents.

And I hate people who use the Bible for gay-bashing too. For the record, not ALL churches are of the opinion that homosexuality is evil. For example, the churches run by my boyfriend's parents http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/supergrin.gif

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"I suspect that many an ailurophobe hates cats only because he feels they are better people than he is; more honest, more secure, more loved, more whatever he is not."

--Winifred Carriere

mthrlangl

07-27-2001, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by hermanm:
And I hate people who use the Bible for gay-bashing too. For the record, not ALL churches are of the opinion that homosexuality is evil. For example, the churches run by my boyfriend's parents http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/supergrin.gif

We have a very nice gay couple in our choir, too, for that matter.

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"I want the life you think I have." ~ Dave Navarro

monsieurjohn

07-27-2001, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by hermanm:
I don't really think you can fault a gay guy for trying to hit on you, any more than you can fault a straight guy for hitting on a woman. However, if you turned down a guy hitting on you, and he kept bothering you, then I could see getting PO'd. Just my two cents.

yeah, that's basically what i meant, but you said it better

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"I've never been sigged." - PsychoticIckyThing

"Maybe *this* is what 'cooties', the disease that every grade schooler is terrified of, yet knows not the symptoms of which, is!" - KNSinatra at 3:34 AM

Diesel

07-29-2001, 09:50 AM

To counter the coworkers argument, I would've just said "well, if you were born straight, how would you go about being able to 'unlearn' THAT?!?"

It's a case of a person or group trying to impart their views and beliefs onto others, and categorizing others to fit into their "mold" of what is right and wrong, rather than just accepting the fact that there are inherent differences among different human beings.

If people would just open their minds to the fact that everyone doesn't have to fit into a certain group or category, and accept the things that make us different, everyone would be a lot happier.

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BizkitBabe

07-30-2001, 03:56 PM

Being religious myself, I can honestly say that while I don’t agree with being homosexual, I won’t condemn nor hate someone for having a certain sexual orientation. The bible, while it is used vastly throughout most religions, hasn’t been proven factual. I know that most religions view it as 100% factual, but there isn’t the slightest bit of proof that allows any Christian being to know for sure. For all I know, the bible could be a fictitious story, written by a group of boys who thought so much of themselves, they chose to make themselves out as friends of God who did outrageous things. I haven’t the slightest clue of what is and what isn’t true, so I could never use the bible in defending my beliefs. The reasoning behind my beliefs is the way the human form is made to fit together. In order to prevent getting too graphic, I’ll just say that I know just as well as you that males and females have “areas” that are meant to fit one another, and I can’t even fathom how that could be an accident or a freak of nature. I think that if males were meant to fit males and females were meant to fit females, we would have been made to do so. I just don’t understand the meanings surrounding homosexuality, and maybe it isn’t meant for me to understand, but I don’t appreciate watching “The Real World” on television (for example) and hearing someone tell the world that disagreeing with homosexuality is a sign of ignorance and of being closed minded. How does telling me I’m wrong in the way I believe any better than myself telling someone who is homosexual or agrees with homosexuality he or she is wrong? It isn’t. DD is right in saying we haven’t a clue about what’s right and what’s wrong, but if it’s all the same to society in general, I’d like to be left alone to believe what I’d like just as much as homosexuals and those who agree with the lifestyle do. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, and as long as I’m minding my own business about it, I don’t see the harm in it. I will say this though...much like things such as affirmative action for example, if homosexuals and supporters of homosexuality want the same rights as heterosexuals do, stop coming up with ways to separate yourselves from others. That’s only reaffirming the issue is it not?

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Does anybody really know the secret or the combination for this life and where they keep it? It's kind of sad when you don't know the meanin', but everything happens for a reason...

[This message has been edited by BizkitBabe on July 30, 2001 at 04:58 PM]

07-30-2001, 08:18 PM

I met a homosexual friend for sushi today. we had a discussion about it and in the end he just laughed. That's all he can do at this point because he knows that ultimately no one can tell him how he feels.
Thank you for your thoughts.

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"You said your body is young but your mind is very old" - Chemical Bros.

meezercat

07-30-2001, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by BizkitBabe:
Being religious myself, I can honestly say that while I don’t agree with being homosexual

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have to say this confuses the heck out of me. To me, that's the same as saying you don't agree with being black, or blonde, or brown-eyed.

I won't go so far as to call someone ignorant, but I just cannot understand this mindset, and I must admit that hearing people say these kinds of things makes me very sad http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

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"I suspect that many an ailurophobe hates cats only because he feels they are better people than he is; more honest, more secure, more loved, more whatever he is not."

--Winifred Carriere

mthrlangl

07-30-2001, 09:19 PM

I have no problem with someone being gay, and I'm certainly not going to tell them that they should be otherwise, but I can definately see BB's point about certain..ah..parts just naturally fitting with the parts of the opposite sex. ::shrug:: How else would we get babies (think before in-vitro and whatnot)?

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"I want the life you think I have." ~ Dave Navarro

BRiT

07-30-2001, 09:27 PM

Herman, I think it all falls on the view that people "choose" their sexual orientation while they can not choose their nationality. But if one beleives that a person can not "choose" their sexual orientation and is born with it, then its understandable how they can not understand the opposite view.

--|BRiT|

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"That which does not kill you, makes you wish it did."

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meezercat

07-30-2001, 09:32 PM

Well, that's the thing. I strongly believe one does not choose their sexual orientation. I have several friends who are gay and wish with all their hearts that they weren't. And I have some friends who are gay and have fully embraced it.

And of course certain parts need to go together to make babies, but not everyone on this earth was meant to have babies, hetero or otherwise.

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"I suspect that many an ailurophobe hates cats only because he feels they are better people than he is; more honest, more secure, more loved, more whatever he is not."

--Winifred Carriere

possum37

07-31-2001, 12:12 PM

The "parts are meant for parts" argument is based off of a bit of Natural Law theory -- basically, everything in the universe has its place and its utility. So teeth are for chewing, eyes are for seeing, and male bits are meant to match with female bits.

There's more to it than that, tho. Teeth are for digestion; eyes are for sight; but "bits" are used for "matching"? No, what most proponents would say is that male & female bits match up for procreation. Aaahhh, now we're getting to the meat of it...

Natural Law says homosexuality is wrong because a persons' bits are being used for something they weren't "naturally" designed for, that is to say, they're being used in a non-procreative way.

Everyone still with me?

Sex (in that particular context) is wrong because there is no possibility of procreation.

But is sex wrong when the act is performed by a man and wife who are infertile? What about an aged couple - are they to refrain from what many take to be the ultimate act of love because they can no longer procreate?

If proponents of Natural Law theory are going to uphold it, they'd better try to uphold it in all aspects of life, and not just when it comes to homosexuality - it's hypocritical to do otherwise. And when they *do* uphold it in all aspects, then the world will finally be the way it was meant to be: *start sarcasm* homosexuality will be banned (sex is meant for procreation); democracy will be outlawed (nature doesn't observe democracy, if one examines animal behavior it's more like a hereditary oligarchy, or, a kingdom); women will lose their civil rights (a male lion is the leader of his pride, not the female), and so it goes. *end sarcasm*

Natural Law just doesn't hold up anymore.

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SwissSmiss

07-31-2001, 02:24 PM

mth
How in the world does that woman think she's going to make people turn to Christ when all she does is persecute them. I mean, no one wants to hear "God hates you, now go to church you

This kind of thing gets me. I mean the type that want to make people turn/find Christ. Maybe people are just born with their religions and it can't be unlearned...

and mth again...

We have a very nice gay couple in our choir, too, for that matter.

Quite frankly, I feel comments like this to be somewhat ignorant. The type that are trying too hard to be, um, pc. It's kinda like saying "I have black friends." I should also comment that I am glad, mth, that you aren't against a person being gay.

hermanm
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have to say this confuses the heck out of me. To me, that's the same as saying you don't agree with being black, or blonde, or brown-eyed.

AMEN SIS-TA! (literally http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol2.gif )

Really, I don't even see it as much issue. I don't treat people with glasses differently than those with 20/20 vision, or people with diabetes different from those who don't. You know? We are talking about people. PEOPLE. Human Beings. No different from anyone else except the way they like to play. Is it not possible to like someone that plays Crazy 8's when you like to play Connect 4?

I think this discussion is basically mute, however, since we all seem to be defending gays and gay rights. Except for BB, who seems accepting so thats all good and we love her no matter what. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

mthrlangl

07-31-2001, 06:18 PM

Quite frankly, I feel comments like this to be somewhat ignorant. The type that are trying too hard to be, um, pc. It's kinda like saying "I have black friends." I should also comment that I am glad, mth, that you aren't against a person being gay.

I really fail to see how that's ignorant. I was merely pointing out that my church, like hermie's, doesn't discriminate against gay people, as some churches do. And I am far from being pc in most cases..this is no exception. If the topic was "why my coworker dislikes black people" (instead of gay people) I might very well back up my points by saying that I had black friends and found nothing wrong with them. It's not like I'm being charitable by welcoming the poor little gay people into my church when no one else would accept them. *That* would be someone trying too hard to be pc.

I should also comment that I am glad, mth, that you aren't against a person being gay.

Would you like to pat me on the head and give me a cookie, too? http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif

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"I want the life you think I have." ~ Dave Navarro

[This message has been edited by mthrlangl on July 31, 2001 at 07:20 PM]

meezercat

07-31-2001, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by possum37:
Natural Law says homosexuality is wrong because a persons' bits are being used for something they weren't "naturally" designed for, that is to say, they're being used in a non-procreative way.

Everyone still with me?

Sex (in that particular context) is wrong because there is no possibility of procreation.

But is sex wrong when the act is performed by a man and wife who are infertile? What about an aged couple - are they to refrain from what many take to be the ultimate act of love because they can no longer procreate?

This is very much my thought, poss, but you were so eloquent about it http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/supergrin.gif

I certainly hope that nobody who feels homosexuality is wrong because the "bits" aren't being used for what they were naturally designed for, ever ever participates in oral sex, or uses condoms, or uses manual stimulation.

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"I suspect that many an ailurophobe hates cats only because he feels they are better people than he is; more honest, more secure, more loved, more whatever he is not."

--Winifred Carriere

the_scarier_one

07-31-2001, 09:25 PM

i totally agree with possum's reasoning here. I mean, i've never really thought it out that fully.
I also agree with many comments made that using the bible to defend one's views of homosexuality is wrong. The way i see it, if a person backs up their feelings using the bible, saying that the bible says homosexuality is wrong, so i think it is, they should follow other laws in the bible. More obscure ones, but rules nonetheless. For example, i know that (unless what i've learned is totally wrong) in the old testament, somewhere, god condemns statues, portraits, representations of human beings. i'm sure that almost everyone takes photos... does it makes sense to follow one rule that suits you, and not another because it doesn't suit you? Even if my example isn't a very good one, i'm sure there are other, better ones.

another comment. it totally irks me when people say they're actively against homosexuality. Trying to stop people from it, trying to encourage laws, i don't know, whatnot it's like 'dude, is it hurting you in any way?' doesn't everyone have the right to love? It's like, why try to stop something that doesn't even affect you? I don't know.

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The Captain: What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week - which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
Later, Luke: What we've got here is a failure to communicate....

SwissSmiss

08-01-2001, 10:04 AM

mth:
I really fail to see how that's ignorant.
ok. i kinda see such statements tend to come out of the mouths of people that are trying not to **** anyone off, but really aren't down with it... Uhh.. i guess I can't really explain it very well...
mth:
I was merely pointing out that my church, like hermie's, doesn't discriminate against gay people, as some churches do.
cool. i'm sorry i missed your association. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/blush.gif
mth:
Would you like to pat me on the head and give me a cookie, too?
well, i don't think i could quite pat you on the head. i don't think you live very close and my arms aren't very long. HOWEVER, just tell me where to send the cookie! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/shy.gif

meezercat

08-01-2001, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by mthrlangl:
I was merely pointing out that my church, like hermie's, doesn't discriminate against gay people, as some churches do.

That's what I got out of it too, Smiss. But glad you understand now http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

mth, I'll send ya a cookie anytime http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/supergrin.gif

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"I suspect that many an ailurophobe hates cats only because he feels they are better people than he is; more honest, more secure, more loved, more whatever he is not."

--Winifred Carriere

Diesel

08-01-2001, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by BizkitBabe:
Being religious myself, I can honestly say that while I don’t agree with being homosexual, I won’t condemn nor hate someone for having a certain sexual orientation.

hermanm> Maybe what BB was trying to say was that, while she doesn't necessarily agree with people who hold a homosexual lifestyle, she doesn't condemn them for doing so. BB, if I'm putting words in your mouth, please clear that up, but I hate to see an argument go forth based on a misunderstanding. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

While I believe that homosexuality is a preference someone is born with, I'm not closed-minded to the idea that other people may believe that it is a conscious choice.
Regardless of how someone believes others attain a homosexual or heterosexual lifestyle, whether through birth or choice, the important thing in life is that we're tolerant and accepting of the differences of others, and that we treat them with a fundamental respect that we should treat every person with.

Although I don't necessarily believe in organized religion, I believe that at it's most basic level, that is the lesson that the Bible attempts to teach those who read it... that the key component in life is to treat everyone with a mutual level of respect and love, regardless of differences. Give, and ye shall receive.

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BizkitBabe

08-02-2001, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Diesel Dan:
hermanm> Maybe what BB was trying to say was that, while she doesn't necessarily agree with people who hold a homosexual lifestyle, she doesn't condemn them for doing so. BB, if I'm putting words in your mouth, please clear that up, but I hate to see an argument go forth based on a misunderstanding. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Why thank you DD...That is indeed what I was trying to say, but I evidentally wasn't as clear and concise in stating my opinion as I had once thought. Oh well, you can't blame a girl for attempting...

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Does anybody really know the secret or the combination for this life and where they keep it? It's kind of sad when you don't know the meanin', but everything happens for a reason...

08-04-2001, 04:51 PM

As for gay boy scouts, maybe it would be fine as a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. The focus is on learning the skills that scouting entails.
And of course pedophilia is not the same as homosexuality.

JHowse

08-04-2001, 07:37 PM

*applauds* It's good to see that we are a tolerant group. I personally think that those who judge and condemn are actually acting contrary to what they believe. I mean, to add to your point on the bible, DD, Jesus did go to those people rejected by others. I always find that interesting. I digress...

To touch the points discussed here. I, personally, do not find comfort with homosexuality, but, I do my best to accept these people and to interact with them as they are just people like us. I also am more comfortable with it than I was in the past. College definitely taught me that. I disagree with being judgemental against homosexuals who try to participate in any kind of organized religion. I believe that churches or other organized religious groups were originally designed to accept anyone who comes in...regardless of what is in their past or what they bring with them. Therefore, being judgemental is inherantly wrong.

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