Sweeping

[Chimpi]

Okay, this isn't at all what you think of it. My school has a new enforcement under law (that was, of course, made by Jeb Bush), that REALLY sucks. Okay, lets say you're 10 seconds late to class. Guess what? You get to go to IS (internal suspension) for that whole period. If you don't know what IS would be, basically you sit in a room and are not allowed to talk and are getting punished. Well, I was, like 2 minutes late to class, and I had a test. Well, coincidently, I got "swept" (what it's called), and spent that whole hour in IS. Now I have to make up the freakin test. Either that, or have my next test count double. *sigh*

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10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!

[liltaz]

why is it so hard to be on time for class? It really shouldn't be that difficult. Quit talking between classes and just go from one class to the next. It really won't kill you.

[Chimpi]

Nonono, that's not at all what kept me. I woke up late, cuz I'm sick, and that's why I was late.
I'm sick, I need my sleep, and the ONLY reason I went to school today was so I could take that test...
*sigh*

------------------
10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[meezercat]

I used to be late all the time when I was in high school. Not between two classes, but for the beginning of school. I had a bad habit of getting into a fight with my mom in the morning, after the bus had already gone by, and then she would decide not to drive me/let me borrow the car. So I'd have to walk, and it was about 5 miles. Luckily the teacher in charge of senior tardies liked me, so he never punished me http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif But one day when he had the day off, the person covering for him saw how many tardies I had and gave me a load of after-school detentions. Which really didn't bother me that much because they did let you study in there. So it just meant fewer books I had to take home. I still was able to get to swim practice on time, which was the important thing http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

[liltaz]

so don't complain..it won't happen again..*shrugs*

it's a good rule. too many kids think they can show up when they want and need to learn otherwise. yes, it punishes kids like you who are almost never late and when you are there's a good reason, but that's how things go...

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Zoopy: D2B

[jadedskies]

Hrm...I can see both sides...but from past experience, I'd have to say it's a decent idea. A bit flawed, but worth it.

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PsychoticIckyThing.Com (http://www.psychoticickything.com)

[monsieurjohn]

maybe if they set a limit to how late you could be before getting in trouble...

but you've learned your lesson, eh? http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/supergrin.gif

we're a compassionate bunch, aren't we? http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

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"Maybe *this* is what 'cooties', the disease that every grade schooler is terrified of, yet knows not the symptoms of which, is!" - KNSinatra at 3:34 AM

[MissLeo]

Hope you feel better Justin *huggies* I personally would not subscribe to such a mode of punishment as it appears to me to just break down the individual's spirit and not really teach any valuable lessons. I too was a bit of a tardie (love the word hermie!) in my matric year (Grade 12)
and in the convent school I attended such rigid discipline existed that one was filled with fear at the consequences (It was seldom my fault as Mama's driver just could not get out of his own bed in time but I was sloth to report the likeable man) When I was late I used to report to the Sister on duty who recorded exact time which I was late then to add to my time at school. This of course placed a burden upon teachers who had to stay to look after a class of tardies (LOL!) They spoke kindly to us to attemt to alleviate this burden by please getting to school on time...we did but it effectively also worked because the driver, hating to wait the extra time eventually got his act together and dropped me at school timeously.
Punishment in any form is severe and crippling to the human spirit (I do not include crime and other terrible actions) Rather, show a child that there is a recompense to be made for what was "taken" in the first place (being school time in this instance)
Hope you get it sorted out http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Good luck!

[MO]

I think it's a bit harsh, really. Maybe give the kids a first chance, esp. if it's the first class of the day and there was a traffic jam or whatever...I can understand if it's a kid who keeps it up, but to be only 10 seconds late one time does not seem to be one warranted of such actions.
I wonder too if Liltaz has had any similar experiences?


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"Some days are diamonds, some days are rocks"

[the_scarier_one]

i really think it's a stupid way to punish kids. i mean, some kids don't really care about detentions and the like. and then to say 'you come late, you have to go to detention' it's like saying, if you come late, you don't have to go to class. and sometimes it's just really hard to get to class on time, no matter how much you hustle.

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He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

[JHowse]

When I was in school, you had a free tardy to use for such instances. It's understandable that something can happen. I believe repeated tardies should warrant after school detention to encourage timely arrival.

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Does driving a car from Saturn make me an alien?

I'm just a quick pee. - liltaz, fastest pee in the West!

That which does not make me barf, makes me stronger - possum37, fugly.net guru.

[ladyserenity]

I think it is appalling! We are talking about a kid who is a really great kid here! Gets mostly A's and B's, doesn't cut classes, is there unless he is really sick. There are kids cutting classes, smoking in the bathrooms, stealing, hurting others, and what about the kids who go around shooting?
Ok...getting carried away here...but, you can bet that if the school doesn't let Nap take a make-up test they will get to deal with me.
http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/soldier.gif Mom

------------------
I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish
certain things. I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

[MissLeo]

You go ladyserenity! Woohooo! Mamas rule! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
I endorse your good remarks about Nap. I just love the sweet boy to bits too. Always nice and witty and very pleasant to chat with http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

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<center><FONT COLOR="blue">Him that I love, I wish to be free - even from me.</center></FONT c>

<FONT size="3"><center><FONT COLOR="red">À l'enfer avec amour!</FONT s></center></FONT c>

[Diesel]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I honestly don't understand the point of this discussion.
A student's one responsibility is to be in class in a timely fashion with their assignments ready. It's a rule of behavior for going to school.
You break the rules, you get punished.

If it's a one-time thing, hey, I understand that sh*t happens, but I really don't think that the purpose of this rule is to severly punish those who do it once, but rather to deter it from becoming a repeating behavior.
If the lesson was learned and he's not late for school again, then the implementation of the rule was successful.


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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Diesel Dan on February 18, 2001 at 08:00 AM]</font>

[ladyserenity]

A few important words here:
South Florida......traffic......Stup id drivers with messed up traffic signals......
combine that with a kid who is really, really sick; who didn't get home until 11pm the previous night due to a jazz band competition; an exhausted mom who was still up when her son came home; and you have the makings for a rough next morning. Also consider that the vast majority of the rules at the school are not enforced...but Nap is one of those who follows the rules! (mama here is the rebellious rule breaker type who wonders how in the world she managed to raise such a fantastic "normal" kid) lol

I guess I am thinking that lateness is not one of those things that "threaten health, safety, or life" and there are other matters going on in school that need immediate attention. If society, authority, or whatever beat up on and demoralize the ones who follow the so-called rules, it won't take long before chaos and/or anarchy seep through. Now that I think about it, it seems a bit of that has already happened. Positive reinforcement as opposed to punishment works wonders.

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I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish
certain things. I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

[Diesel]

I think equating a child being late to school with chaos and anarchy goes well beyond the scope of reasonable progression.

I honestly can't see the problem in having a system designed to make sure that students are either encouraged to arrive in a timely fashion, or deterred from arriving late.

Sure, everyone can have excuses as to why they didn't show up on time

South Florida......traffic......Stup id drivers with messed up traffic signals......
combine that with a kid who is really, really sick; who didn't get home until 11pm the previous night due to a jazz band competition; an exhausted mom who was still up when her son came home; and you have the makings for a rough next morning.


but regardless of any excuses, the fact remains that he wasn't on time. You can't rightfully ask for special treatment for otherwise "good" kids. The rules are there to be applied uniformly.
Just because someone has a history of being "one of those who follows the rules" does not make them exempt from the punishment when they do break the rules.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
The solution is simple: make sure he's not late anymore.
*shrug*

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Diesel Dan on February 18, 2001 at 09:49 AM]</font>

[ladyserenity]

I think equating a child being late to school with chaos and anarchy goes well beyond the scope of reasonable progression.

I'm talking principles here. Bad rules need to be changed. All throughout history people have fought and protested against laws and rules that were unfair. If the school wanted to impose internal suspension for being late;

inform parents
create gradations of penalties

I did not know this policy was in effect. It wasn't in the rules and regs I read at the start of the school year. Nothing was sent home to inform me of this.
The only way I am aware of Nap's IS...he told me. I have a real problem with that. The school should be obligated to inform me.
If Nap had a history of being late, that's one thing. I would fully support such an idea. But his
FIRST time? That is totally absurd.
I still maintain that there are much more serious issues in the schools. Many kids don't use the restrooms at school...why? The smoke is too thick! And this is a school that is basically outside. (Only classrooms and offices are completely enclosed) Why isn't the rule of no smoking on campus enforced? That is an issue much more serious than a kid being a few minutes late in the morning.



------------------
I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish certain things.
I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

[Chimpi]

And also, this school has the most violence in all of the area. Not to say it's a bad school...best school in the area too, but that's not the point. Some things are screwed up...

------------------
10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[Diesel]

Originally posted by ladyserenity:
All throughout history people have fought and protested against laws and rules that were unfair.

Again, we're talking about kids being late to school, not taxation without representation. Let's keep it in the realm of the realistic. This really doesn't sound to me like a rule that's unreasonable or unfair.

As a student, your sole responsibility is to be in class on time, prepared to hand in your completed assignments. All of the other stuff in life is secondary.
Yes, the school should have absolutely informed the parents of a new rule or a rule change, but a rule to enforce a student's sole obligation really shouldn't be met with such resistance or hostility.

It sounds to me like you don't have a problem with the actual rule, so much as you have a problem with it's presentation.


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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Diesel Dan on February 18, 2001 at 04:35 PM]</font>

[Chimpi]

*sigh*

You guys argue too much

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10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[Diesel]

Nap&gt; You're the one who brought it up. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol.gif

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

[Chimpi]

Yeah, ranting, not arguing

But whatever, I'm over that incident. If it happens again I'll be in the offices face...BIGTIME. I have morals, and I have principles, and one of my main one's is to NOT get in trouble (which includes getting detentions, or going to IS, or getting in fights...etc).

------------------
10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[KNSinatra]

You really do have to deter the little things to make the big "heinous" things that go on in school systems seem abhorent in comparison. I would draw a comparison to Rudy Giuliani's approach to making NYC a safe city, but I'll spare you my political ramblings http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.

[ladyserenity]

(Who's arguing? Just a discussion...not even a debate.)
The small things can easily develop into big things.
Think of Germany during the 20's and early 30's. Yes, I know it isn't kids being late for school. Again, I am speaking to the principle.
Each of us has our values, principles, opinions, etc. For me, it is important to stand up for what you believe in and what you believe your rights are. I've tried to impart that in raising my kids. I believe his rights were violated as a student. I believe my rights were violated as a parent.
(if you leave a sliver in it could become infected and result in amputation) http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/rofl.gif

------------------
I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish certain things.
I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by ladyserenity on February 18, 2001 at 05:36 PM]</font>

[the_scarier_one]

i think that in house detention thing if you're late is stupid. trust me, even to stop people from being late often, it's not good. if they gave detention after school, that's different. but some students would purposely go to class late if they knew they wouldn't actually have to go to the class.

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He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

[Chimpi]

The fact of the matter is that more kids are late to class now. Why? So they can get out of that class, rather than get caught skipping and get into IS for the whole day.

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10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[Diesel]

Nap&gt; That's pretty sad, but the fact is that nothing is going to deter kids who don't give a rat's ass in the first place.

If the punishment is a strong enough deterrant to stop someone like you (meaning someone who cares about their grades and generally follows the rules) from being late, then it's an effective deterrant.

Whether or not you agree with the method, it's pretty clear to me that it's inconvenienced you enough that you'll now go out of your way to avoid being late again.

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

[Chimpi]

Well I know it will help, but I can't help it if there's no way I can get there. That's what I've been trying to say. That particular time won't help me at all, cuz there was no way it could have been prevented.

------------------
10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[liltaz]

...and if you were so sick why were you at anything and out anywhere until 11pm the night before? That's CERTAINLY no excuse. That's your own fault for going out so late when you knew you were sick. Competition or no competition you were sick. There will be another one. Your health is more important than any jazz competition. They'll live without you for a night.

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Zoopy: D2B

[Debby]

Okay....i realize I am new here, and maybe I don't have a right to voice my opinion like some of you do who have been here for a long time, but I am going to do so anyway!!

Geesh!!! Some of you (no names mentioned) are awfully hard on people here!!! I don't think it is right to punish someone for being late to school once in awhile, if there is a valid reason.....like being sick, or some other valid reason....now....of course if it is a habitual offender....someone who is constantly late (with excuses that don't add up) then fine! great! Punish them! They SHOULD be punished....but not the average good student who is late because of a good reason.....and If some of you long standing members of alien soup are displeased with my post..I truley am sorry...but I DO think a couple of you are being a bit harsh in your judgements.

So hopefully, I won't get booted off of here, for stating my opninion, though opposite of a few of you. I feel that is what Alien soup is about......different people having different opinions, yet still respecting each other.

I hope I have not offended anyone, that was not my intent.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Debby on February 20, 2001 at 11:13 PM]</font>

[jourgenson]

I definitely would not have liked a high school where I was punished for being late. If there had we all would have had to be punished quite often. My scholl did come up with a brilliant way to curb tardines. They moved homeroom from before 1st period to after since many kids would skip homeroom altogether. What that created was a lot of lateness in a class as opposed to hr, which is a waste of time anyway.

The worst I got were illegal absences and/or tardinesses on report cards. I never even bothered to bring in notes when I was legitimately ill, since there did not seem to be any downside to having illegal absences on the card.



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my eyes, the goggles do nothing

[TheFishee]

Bwahahahahahahahah

Sorry Power Trippie but what are these Schools coming to these days, now they want to stop you from learning, what about factors beyound your control ?
Stupid Schools.

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<FONT face="Tahoma"><FONT COLOR="Red">Pour être avec vous j'irai à l'enfer et reviendrai</FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT face="Tahoma"><FONT COLOR="Red">Je volerais même votre peinture de ciel...</FONT c></FONT f>
His FreeDom Comes From being With Her...Always.

[Diesel]

Debby&gt; You have as much right to voice your opinion here as anyone else does, regardless of how long you or they have been here. I don't think anyone would ever hold it against you for expressing an opposing opinion. All opinions are welcome here, whether they agree with the majority or not. While we may not agree with your opinion on various issues, we'd never doing anything such as "boot you off of here" for disagreeing with anyone.
http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

And I wouldn't look at it as passing judgement, as much as it is others expressing their opinions, as you have. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif


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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Diesel Dan on February 21, 2001 at 12:50 AM]</font>

[MissLeo]

Debby: You put it so eloquently that whatever punishment may be required to be meted out, it must be done with consideration for the individual, with kindness and in a manner that will not create resentment or feelings of inferiority. No one can gainsay such wisdom *hugs*
Now let this outspoken Lioness add her bit *roars to obtain silence* Any form of punishment that degrades or causes resentment and feelings of inferiority (such as a non-negotiable forced detention or God forbid...corporal punishment) is barbaric. I have nothing more to say. Don't make me say it twice http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

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<FONT COLOR="blue">º Life is a bitch, but the puppies are cute º</FONT c>

[Diesel]

MissLeo&gt; Please keep in mind that it is not the job or responsibility of the educational system to maintain a student's feelings and sense of self. They are not there to ensure that a student is mentally fit. That's the responsibility of the student.
It is their job to educate, and keep in mind that they cannot do that if a student is not present for the entire class.

It also disrupts the education of the other students in a class when someone comes in late, so I see this rule as benefiting the group as a whole.

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

[MissLeo]

In France and most of Europe (and incidentally SA as well) "Education" includes a contribution to the Child's mental and physical health as well as his/her preparation to be a normal well-adapted and educated member of Society.
This is exactly why certain people feel they are "called" to be Teachers. they help shape the lives of the Nation's next generation - a worthwhile, rewarding and essential task http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Hence in these countries Teachers are held in such high regard and the profession is greatly respected and sought after.
You mean to say....(let's not go there...)? I agree that continuous tardiness on the part of a student should be investigated and together with the parents and other community leaders, corrective action is to be taken AGAIN with kindness and a very great concern for the students self-esteem and mental and physical well-being.
We MUST show our children the beauty they have inside of themselves...they are our future http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif As I stated earlier, my contribution to this debate is now concluded. Best wishes to all and may we always remember to be infinitely kind and gentle in the treatment of others...especially our children http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Toodles!

Ele

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<FONT COLOR="blue">º Life is a bitch, but the puppies are cute º</FONT c>

[Chimpi]

Thank you Debby, I needed that (especially today)

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10 years from now, you will worship me. Oh yes, I will be God. I will be yours, and everyones God. I..will..be...TRUMPET GOD!
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[TheFishee]

DD

MissLeo&gt; Please keep in mind that it is not the job or responsibility of the educational system to maintain a student's feelings and sense of self. They are not there to ensure that a student is mentally fit. That's the responsibility of the student.


Sorry DD but I am also on the other Side of the Debate, It would be in both the teachers and students interest to help each other out, But More Teachers, as the Teacher would access the students capabilities in his/her class in which shows that it is the teacher is responsibility for the student, [Who decides then If the student is mentally fit to proceed to the next Grade Or is capable to take that certain class???]. As for poor lil Power Trippie I find it extremely unfair for any student an [A] Grade or somebody that walks into class last to be punished
By getting "swept”. Is this being applied to all schools or just yours, although you did say Your school's new "enforcement under law”...
Why don’t you get all the students to write a partition out and hand it into the Headmaster...

P.s
Power Trippie I hope you make it to school in time
Today http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by TheFishee on February 22, 2001 at 01:11 AM]</font>

[KNSinatra]

DD, you're not alone on your stance -- I am very much in agreement with you. You articulated the argument very well, so all I have to say is "ditto." http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

------------------
monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.

[Diesel]

Originally posted by TheFishee:
DD
Sorry DD but I am also on the other Side of the Debate, It would be in both the teachers and students interest to help each other out, But More Teachers, as the Teacher would access the students capabilities in his/her class in which shows that it is the teacher is responsibility for the student, [Who decides then If the student is mentally fit to proceed to the next Grade Or is capable to take that certain class???].

Of course it would be in the best interest of the teacher to make sure that the student is in a mentally prepared state. But that's not a teacher's job. A student's responsiblity is to come into class prepared to learn. A teacher's responsibility is to come into class prepared to teach.
If it were the teacher's job to hand-hold every student and make sure that their feelings and emotions are accomodated before the teaching actually begun, there would be absolutely no time left in the day to teach anything, because they're dealing with many students in each class. It's bad enough that we have overflowing classrooms with 40+ students in some cities. Imagine a teacher having to take the time to coddle and nurture 40 students individually every day?!? That's ludicrous.

Originally posted by TheFishee:
As for poor lil Power Trippie I find it extremely unfair for any student an [A] Grade or somebody that walks into class last to be punished


This is simply just equal punishment. There can't be an uneven distribution of punishment or preferential treatment. As I said before, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
It's really not like the punishment is that bad. It's not like "if you're late, you're suspended for a week". If you're late, you're prevented from entering class and disturbing the other 30 students in the class who actually made the effort to get into class on time. It's for the benefit of the greater group over the benefit of the one who wasn't able to work within the rules which had been laid out for everyone.

If a child is really an A student, they should understand that they should be in class on time. If they can't be, there are consequences. Where's the problem?!?

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Diesel Dan on February 22, 2001 at 11:59 AM]</font>

[Chimpi]

Ahh, but you're wrong. I now have a 61% in math class (F) because I don't have that test. What do you mean it's not like it's a big deal? I DO NOT AND WILL NOT GET F'S


I think this states the problem, easily.
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Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by NapoliJ10 on February 22, 2001 at 03:58 PM]</font>

[TheFishee]

Hey DD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are You Sure You were'nt Brought Up by The Military, Maybe In A MILITARY SCHOOL !!!!!

[Prox]

Ok time for Prox to incert oppinion and interject before things end up like I see them heading. I think this has been debated to a point where it is time for sides to agree to disagree before it turns into an all out war of the sides.

As for my oppinion . . . Personaly I see both sides to this argument. On one side I believe that DD is right that it is the students responsibility to be in class on time and ready to learn, which is the intent of this rule. However I do believe that the rule is a little strict, there should be some sort of a grace period of like a min or two before one is swept, with excessive one or two min tardiness leading to instantainous sweeping. But as the rule is written bad it still must be enforced equally regardless of if they are good students or bad. Ok I think I have said my peice. If this dosnt really make sence to you all then well I guess I am just not articulating my thoughts well at the moment and i am sorry but that is what you are gonna get http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif . . . K Nuff said http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

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Mother Should I Trust The Government - Pink Floyd

[possum37]

Prox&gt; Well said; it totally made sense.

TheFishee&gt; Try to refrain from personal attacks like that...it doesn't do the conversation any good, other than to exacerbate the situation.

Everyone else&gt; Wow, one of the better threads I've read in a while! Very well thought out and well debated on both sides of the issue.

------------------
My knob tastes funny.

[MO]

It seems to be a good argument, I still think it's harsh, and I agree with Prox. * I still want to know who else has had to deal with a smiliar issue, such as Liltaz, b/c you seem to come across very strong about this issue.
I certainly see why Nap wanted to go to the band competition- keep in mind his age, his state of mind, his probably just trying to juggle everything, and it happened. So he was late. He's an adolescent who is going to go through things and not always have the best judgement. And I know that's not the "school's fault", (if that is what you may be thinking). I guess it's a combination of what is culturally acceptable (i.e. MissLeo's remarks) in terms of how one looks at education and what one's role is expected to be as an educator (relaying to MissLeo's post) and what type of population and/or environment one is dealing with, as well as how successful the outcome is anticipated to be by implementing such guidelines.
In any event, Nap is still alive and well!

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"Some days are diamonds, some days are rocks"

[Debby]

Well said, Lil 'Mo....http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif And Dan, I don't think he was asking for anyone to hold his hand or baby him, it is just simply unfair that a good student such as hisself has to now be getting an F in math, because he was a couple minutes late....if I were his mom, I would raise...h*ll.
Anyway, this has been an interesting debate, and I'm glad noone took offense at my post, and Nap...I hope everything works out for you....your a good kid!!! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif And MissLeo....I thought you said everything quite elequently too! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Debby on February 22, 2001 at 06:32 PM]</font>

[TheFishee]

Ummmmm

I meant it as a JOKE!!!!!!!
Eish -----&gt; http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif

http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[meezercat]

Fishee, I don't think you need me to remind you that you need to be more careful with your jokes. They tend to be mean-spirited, and they've gotten you into trouble already. Personal attacks aren't funny, and are not welcome in this or any other thread.

[TheFishee]

hermanm - Let not the sands of time get in your lunch....

*tongue firmly in my cheek*

You guys need to lighten up a bit. I did not post with malicious intent at all.

[Diesel]

The Fishee&gt; Regardless of whether or not you meant it as a joke, you really have no place in making judgements on my life or upbringing, especially since you have no basis on which to make that judgement. You don't know me well enough to make statements like that and expect them to be taken lightheartedly.

Especially considering that I had done nothing to provoke any personal comments from you, other than having a differing opinion, I thought that was in extremely poor taste, even if you meant it as a joke.

FWIW, I was pretty disappointed that you had to bring down an otherwise mature discussion with a personal attack like that.

Nap&gt; From the original post, you stated the following:

Now I have to make up the freakin test. Either that, or have my next test count double.


More recently, you've now stated:

Ahh, but you're wrong. I now have a 61% in math class (F) because I don't have that test.

So does that mean that you haven't yet made up the test? Or did you have the 2nd test count double and did poorly on it?
With the incomplete info, it's kind of hard to place blame like that, don't you think?

Either way, the blame should still lie on you. If you did make up the exam, you had plenty of preparation time to ace it. At the very least, you had more preparation time than any of the other students.
And if you had the second test count double, wouldn't that logically motivate you to study extra-hard?

Despite all of the finger-pointing, in the end, it's still your responsibility to be in class on time. If you knew the penalty for being late to class is IS, and you knew that you had a test that day, you should've made the extra effort to have been on time.
No amount of rationalization can take away from the fact that you were late to class, that the penalty for being late is IS, and that you were aware of the penalty for being late to class.

The reason that I stated that I didn't understand why it was a big deal is because the rule has an "out" included in it. That "out" is put in place so that one wayward lateness won't cause you to flunk a class. If you're late during a period when an exam is scheduled, you have an opportunity to make up the exam, or to receive credit for the missed exam. So, again I ask "What's the big deal?"


------------------
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

[Chimpi]

Well, there answer is no. I haven't made up the test yet, and I'm not sure if the teacher is going to let me. I've asked many times, and she won't give me a straight answer. However, she did say Tuesday after school, so hopefully I'll be able to make up that test.

Also, going by what you said, those last few paragraphs shouldn't have been said, because you didn't know the answer to your own question, and you based that on your own opinion that I took another test and sucked at it, which doesn't happen to me. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously though, I dunno why I just started the sentence with "seriously though", but anyway....
I did not know that the penalty was IS. What I knew about the new thing was you're sent to the vafateria, givin a yellow "tardy" slip, and send to class 10 minutes later (actually, that's how it was in the beginning). But, for some reason, they changed it and now you sit in IS for the whole class period. NONE (and I mean none) of the teachers agree with the new system. It screws both the students and the teacher:
the student because they miss the lesson for the day
and the teacher because they, themselves, have to deal with the attendence issue. The guidance office doesn't do it for this new rule.

I do see what you mean, and you're stating your view very well (which is why I keep replying too), but you are doing it rather harshly no matter what you may think.

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Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[Diesel]

Nap&gt; Well, if the rule states that you should be allowed to make up the exam, then you should be allowed to. If the teacher prevents you from doing so, you certainly have a legitimate complaint.

Additionally, if they changed the penalty without any prior notification to students, you would have an equally legitimate complaint about that as well.

I still think that the premise of the rule is sound and logical, but the more you post about it, the more it appears that the rule itself is not flawed, but the implementation of it is. Of course, it would help if you posted ALL of the info up front so we can understand your side of the argument more fully. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
I think that the folks that make these rules would be wise to think as hard about how they implement these rules as they think about the creation of the rule itself.

Nowhere in those last few paragraphs did I ever insinuate that you did poorly on any of the exams, or base my argument on any such assumption. Every example was clearly stated hypothetically.

I also never admitted or denied that my opinion might be harsh. My opinion of things is that people need to have some accountability for their actions. People have to accept that there are consequences for breaking the rules, regardless of whether or not they are a good person.
Someone could very well be a model citizen, never having broken a law in their life. Does this mean that they should not be held accountable when they beat their wife, or rob a store? Of course not. They broke a law which was in place which has a specified penalty for breaking that law. You do the crime, you do the time.

Your case is similar, in that you are apparently a model student, you get good grades, and you're normally on time to class. Does this mean that you shouldn't receive the specified punishment when you are late to class? Of course not. You're no different than any other student in that school in the eyes of the rules, and you shouldn't receive specialized treatment when you break those rules.

If this sounds harsh to you, I don't really think I can introduce any reasonable argument to sway your point of view. However, to me, this seems to be fair and equal treatment under the law, and I really can't understand how someone can argue against everyone being treated fairly and equally.
Now, you may say that you don't feel you were treated fairly, but it does appear to me, from what you had previously posted, that you had received the specified punishment for your transgression.

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

[Chimpi]

Well, first off, I didn't rob a store and beat my wife, I *accidently* came to class late. ANd what do you mean I shouldn't get special treatment? The day *any* school doesn't favor atleast one student is the day there is no such thing as school. Why do you think the kids who always get in trouble get in trouble less than those who never get in trouble (if you follow...lol, kinda hard to understand)? Because they know the administrators so well that the administrators talk friendly to them and let them go, whereas those who never get in trouble usually get the harshest punishment. Also, we live in America. Why do you think I keep saying Communism would be an ideal government type? Because everyone is treated equally! Unlike a democracy or republic, where certain groups get treated with more respect and stuff.
In school, the kid who usually is the role model (meaning a good student-like me) never gets treated the way others do because they're always expected to do better than everyone else. Therefor when they screw up, they get the manure. It's common sense, not logic. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

(and keep in mind, I know you're not trying to be mean or anything, just stating your point. As I am too)

It's hard for me to explain, but if you don't see that every day people get special treatment, then you better wake up. (no offense, just kinda stating that certain people get treated differently all the time)

Plus, teachers say themselves, "Kids who are very well mannered will usually get that extra push up to the next grade level if they're just under it (for example, a D is 70%, and F is 0-69%. For the well mannered kids, if they have a 69%, they'll usually be bumped up to the D)"
Why can't this be the same for the one time they're late?

------------------
Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[JHowse]

Nap&gt; I think your arguement, here, doesn't follow. You are now discussing fair treatment under a set of rules and not the rules or the implementation of the rules. To address your comments, I do agree that there are some who get treated better than others, but that is the unfortunate side effect of human nature....to pick favorites.

Communism fails because of one thing....laziness. You see, Communism is an economy where everyone gets an equal share of the profits...no matter how hard or little you work...or what you do. So, if I were living in a communist state, what would I do? I would get that job and just kind of work leisurely. I wouldn't care about those deadlines because I get my equal share, no matter what. There is no extra reward for hard work, either. So, I will be lazy. This attitude can then propogate across the entire nation. Guess what? Production slows down....profits are much less...the country's economy falls. This is my simple arguement, but I think it illustrates why pure Communism will never work. Nevermind that the government also has to control the monies of the nation....also has to control everything. That's another issue, though.

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Does driving a car from Saturn make me an alien?

That which does not make me barf, makes me stronger - possum37, fugly.net guru.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by JHowse on February 23, 2001 at 09:28 PM]</font>

[Chimpi]

Okay, I give up

------------------
Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[Debby]

Don't give up, Nap....I thought you had alot of valid things to say in this thread...and more power to you!!! And although I do also somewhat see the other side's view...I still think you were treated unfairly, and I think there are alot of people here who also feel the same. Let us know if you get to make up the test, and how you do! Study hard! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[Diesel]

Nap&gt; I NEVER once said that you beat your wife or robbed a store. I also never once suggested that your offense should, in any way, equate to those offenses. I suggest you stop taking things so personally, and understand that it's an EXAMPLE.
Specifically, it's an example of how an otherwise model citizen is subject to the punishment defined by law for those offenses.

And I would also suggest that before you tell me that I should "wake up", I think you should bear in mind that I've already dealt with high school, college, and life in the real world. I've been there and done that for many years already. I know EXACTLY how the world works.
There are life lessons that you are going to learn, and the only way to learn them is to live through them. For many of the things you're going through, I've already lived through them, so your arguments aren't completely lost on me, but I also have life experience to tell me that high school is not the real world.

Students in high school live a VERY sheltered life, and there will be a great awakening when they step out of that shelter. Youth brings with it an arrogance and naiveness that comes from lack of life experience. I was that way, as are all kids. My mother used to have a saying posted on the refridgerator that I used to roll my eyes at when I was your age, but which makes a ton of sense to me now. It used to read:

ATTENTION KIDS
Tired of the rules?
Then move out, get a job, and make your own way while you still know everything!

Life has a way of teaching us that we know nothing. Kids in school really do tend to think they know everything, but you quickly learn how little you really do know. The awareness and acceptance of how little we know is what gives us maturity.

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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Diesel Dan on February 23, 2001 at 10:32 PM]</font>

[Chimpi]

Exactly my point, Debby. This post right here

http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Yes, I'll tell you what happens in the long run.

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Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[ladyserenity]

DD....how little you really do understand my son. He isn't one of those cocky "I know everything" kids (yet).
I haven't been here in a few days, and have found it very interesting to see how this thread has continued. You can believe I am extremely interested in the outcome of whether the test will be made up or not. I've already gone a few rounds at the school for some of their insipid rules.
I have also noticed a lot of harsh words and opinions going through here. Some say, don't take it personal. It is part of human nature to take as personal an "attack" on one's opinions.
Nap was late that day, no getting around that. Now, is that the first time in his life he was ever late? No. Is it the last time he will ever be late? Not likely. Did the world end because he was late? No. Did he deserve to miss the class, and therefore the test because he was late? No! If he had a history of being a troublemaker at school, or if he was one of the "rich and powerful", he would have ended up sitting in the classroom taking the test. The rules are not applied equally. The rule is ridiculous and needs to be changed.
(hmmmm, have I ever rambled here! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol.gif )

------------------
I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish certain things.
I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

[KNSinatra]

Originally posted by ladyserenity:
If he had a history of being a troublemaker at school, or if he was one of the "rich and powerful", he would have ended up sitting in the classroom taking the test. The rules are not applied equally.



Has this ever been the case within your school system? I can't picture a "rich and powerful" kid (parents) blatantly bypassing rules and regulations in a public school. I honestly can't picture teachers ushering in late, albeit, rich students, into classes/tests unlike other students.

I've personally never witnessed this -- in my town, the first selectman's son was busted for drugs as would asy other student. As have been students from extremely weathly and influential families...

------------------
monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by KNSinatra on February 23, 2001 at 11:07 PM]</font>

[Debby]

You are a very good mother...Miss S. I think nap is lucky to have such a mother, I hope he realizes that. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif And also you are lucky to have such a son as him. http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[ladyserenity]

awww..thank you. I don't see how I could be any prouder of him than I already am! http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

------------------
I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish certain things.
I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

[Alyth]

I'm sorry it's taken so long to respond... http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I have read all of the point of views about this and I must say I do see everyone's point of views. let me tell you my high school punishment system before I get into my opinion. Students were allowed a five minute grace period untill they were concidered late and punished. If someone was to be punished (same rule applies to not following dress code) the student would have to sit in the head teacher's office for the entire day. The office was in between two classes and was surrounded by windows so it was quite humiliating http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/eek.gif. If there was a test on that day, the teacher would bring the test to you to take in the office and lunch was also brought to you. I saw this as both unfair but fair. The humiliating part of sitting in an office where everyone can see you was humiliating but on the other hand, a dress code and the five minute tardy grace period wasn't too hard to follow. The teachers did however show a great understanding if you were sick. A parent would have to call in to explain this so they knew the student was actually sick or had a valid reason.

Because of what I went through, I can understand both sides. It's wrong to be late, but a good reason should not be punishable. If it's nap's first time AND had a good reason there shoudl be at least some understanding handed to him. However, Nap, your being the teacher's pet http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/doggy.gifhttp://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/kitty.gif only makes the school want to make an example out of you and NOT give you special treatment. Believe me, I should know! I too was the teacher's pet and when times were rough they came down on me and didn't even bother to really understand why I was acting the way I did. I believe the school wasn't trying to be hard on you, Nap, but more set an example for the other students to not be late regardless of who you are. They also want to make sure you don't repeat it. I agree they were too hard on you considering the circumstances and maybe this should be discussed between a teacher and your mother if it happens again. Teachers have a funny way about them when it comes to listening to students as opposed to their parents.

Nap, I certainly hopes it works out for you.

Ladyserenity, I think you are being a great supporting mother. Keep up the good work!

DD, I do agree with your point of view. In general, It is a good rule but it should not have to be that strict to work.

I also hope that the debating doesn't progress further to an argument on whose opinions are right and whose are wrong since everyone has a right to their opinions. It sounds like most of you understand that but it seems some are still getting a little defensive about it. Above all, it's the mother's decision on how to proceed with her own child's future...at least when it comes to subjects like school and the like!

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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength;
while loving someone deeply gives you courage.
--Lao Tzu

LOVE ME LOVE MY DOGS

[Chimpi]

Well you read way into this Lys. They (meaning the campus monitors) have no idea who I am. Why? Because I never get in trouble. Therefor they didn't know that I'm a "teachers pet" (as you call it, but not what I call myself), and a very good student, and whatnot. Heh
I do see what you mean though...

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Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[Alyth]

Not really, Nap, you keep saying you are a good student and I'm saying the teachers and other people working at the school will use you as an example thinking that other students will learn from this. Also I was agreeing with you, silly!! But I also see how the punishment is good. It just needs to be fair on both sides. Students will get pissed if it's too unfair. Students will respect a rule if it's a good rule AND executed properly. They are too strict with this rule. This rule can work, but it has to be made fair. For example, if first offense, get a warning, after that get some kind of punishment. If sick with an excuse then get a warning or something, but getting punished because you were two minutes late for class on the first offense is not fair and will only piss students off rather than get then to obey it.

------------------
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength;
while loving someone deeply gives you courage.
--Lao Tzu

LOVE ME LOVE MY DOGS

[Chimpi]

Exactly my point.

And do you REALLY think the other kids care that I got IS? No, because about 30 other kids got swept for that period too. Happens every day, for every hour of the day. Really sucks. Way too strict.

It all comes down to the school board of our school, because I don't know any other school that's doing this. And it sucks...bigtime
*evil eye*
http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/hmph.gif

heh

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Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[ladyserenity]

oh, we don't even want to get into the school board issue here!
But yes, as I think I said in either my first or second post...it is a BAD rule, we (at least parents) were not informed of it, and it is not equally applied.

------------------
I wander, therefore I roam.
God put me on this earth to accomplish certain things.
I am now so far behind
I will never die!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!

[Diesel]

Originally posted by ladyserenity:
But yes, as I think I said in either my first or second post...it is a BAD rule, we (at least parents) were not informed of it, and it is not equally applied.


DISCLAIMER: Pardon me if this seems off base, which might be because it appears to me that the word "if" was either intentionally or accidently left out in the above sentence between "rule," and "we".

I disagree that it is a bad rule. It seems to be that it is a sound rule that is being implemented poorly.
Is it a logical rule at its core? Yes.
Is it a fair rule at its core? Yes.
Is it being implemented in a reasonable manner? Probably not.
Should parents be notified of ANY policy change? Absolutely.
Should all students be treated equally in the enforcement of the rule? Certainly.
Would a logical and fair implementation of this rule benefit the students in the long run? Most likely.

From an earlier post:
Originally posted by ladyserenity:
Did he deserve to miss the class, and therefore the test because he was late? No!

Again, I disagree. If the rule and punishment stated that being late resulted in missing the class, then he did deserve to miss the class.
Since the rule also makes allowances to permit the making up of missed work, then it also has safties in place to make sure that the student isn't penalized too strictly.
Did he deserve to miss class? In my opinion, yes.
Does he deserve an opportunity to make up the exam he missed? Of course.


------------------
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious."

[Chimpi]

Is it unfair? YES
Were any parents notified? NO
Does every single teacher and student hate the rule? YES
Did it screw me bigtime? YES
Does my mom deserve to be treated and talked down upon like you are? NO
Should the word "if" go in there? NOPE
Is that disclaimer a little harsh? YES
Does DD have a problem? YES

You did this every time, and I am sick and tired of it. If you have a problem with something, DO NOT KEEP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE AND QUOTING THEM AND SAYING "Oh I'm so much better than you because I can quote you and disagree with everything you say". I may not know you, but GET OFF THE CASE already....jeez dude

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Dej no avverkar bryr sig, avlöper bort
Justin's Swing Palace (http://www.geocities.com/bigband_justin/index.html)

[meezercat]

Ok, guys... I think this issue has been talked to death and nothing new is being said, so I'm going to close this thread.

If you have a problem with that, please PM me.