ask the athiest

[dont argue with this guy]

i am an athiest but i respect every religion. So i want to hear what you have to say about atheism and how your for or against it. After all, this is a debate forum!

[Djeuve]

I am agnostic.

I've been dissapointed by many horrendous things executed by organised religion... But, I still want to believe that there is good in the world.

As for God, a god, or many other gods, I just don't know. I know it's a question of faith, but then, look at some people who kill in the name of faith and their religion...

I still believe that the basic foundation of most religions are good, though. Many laws are based on them, after all... But it's how some extremist people interpret their scriptures that scare me, or use it as an excuse to go through with something I feel is wrong.

And I'm not saying something like: "All Chrsitians/Jews/Muslims/Bhuddhists are bad, bad, BAD!"

No. I prefer to see people on an individual basis. Whether they believe in a religion or not is their own thing. As people, I either like or dislike them based on character.

But I'm still amazed at some things people pull off in the name of their religion, which CLEARLY goes against that same religion.

[Nightwolf04]

I don't exactly know what to put as my 'believes' as I keep changing them, msotly everyday, as I learn new things and watch how other people act or lsiten to their believes. But yes I do believe there is some form of God/Goddess/spirit

[dont argue with this guy]

i look at this from a scientific point of view, so thats why its hard for me to imagine something of a higher power.

[Djeuve]

i look at this from a scientific point of view, so thats why its hard for me to imagine something of a higher power.

I know, looking at it all now, that everything seems to be explained by science, it's hard to believe some higher force came made made every little complex detail in the universe.... But, think of how it all started.

Some "Big Bang" of an explosion came from nowhere and just happened to set the right conditions for sentient life? That, for me, is also very hard to believe.

Why is it so hard for people to believe or accept that there might be something that is so much more intelligent or powerful than we are, a consciousness we can not even begin to understand because our brains cannot fathom it?

We still can't prove everything with science, so why throw away the possibility that there might be some form of God? Sure, it was not scientifically proven that he/she exists, but neither has it been proven that he/she doesn't exist...

Thus, I am in an eternal state of being a wandering agnostic...

[dont argue with this guy]

thats a good point that you can neither prove nor disprove gods existence, but you have to ask yourself; if god created/creates, why are there so many imperfections in the world such as people with disabilites, or organs and parts of the body that are not used?

[Djeuve]

That's another mystery I deeply reflect on... But I'm not full of answers, just questions.

So, for your question, I ask: What if this higher being is not perfect itself?

Or maybe these things are some form of punishment we can't understand, or maybe there is some higher form of Evil as well that is intent on unleashing plagues, for its own purposes...

I'm not saying I believe all that, but I can't bring myself to completely reject the possibilities, either.

I guess I'm an agnostic/Possiblist, if such a thing exists :p

[dont argue with this guy]

yeah, it all just seems too farfetched for me to try and understand it...again, because of my scientific background, i think that anything that you can't use the scientific method to prove isn't worth the time to try proving it, not only about religion but other questions like what is the meaning of life or something along those lines.

[Djeuve]

Yeah, we'll leave those to philosopher majors... Any of them out there care to put in their 2 cents worth?

[roxxorzyoursoxxorz]

hi im a new member my feeling on the issue is that their is a greater being . What it is or how it operates i do not know. I dont beleive in the big bang theory because what was there to big bang there had to be something that created what was banged. I also beleive that evolution is partly true but there had to be another hand in the making of all that we know.

[Damm]

I don't know what I would be labeled in the religious world. About 7 years ago I started developing my own religion which is based on quantum physics...maybe it's not even a religion, but it's something I believe in.

A cool movie/documentary to watch is "What the bleep do we know?!" It was just released in Canada in this winter, so I don't know it's availability in other places, but it's along the topic that you guys have been discussing, and it's also the only thing I've ever seen that discusses my weird quantum physics religion...thus destroying my delusions that I was the first person to ever thing of such things, but ah well, at least I'm not alone :)

[M@Broz]

i look at this from a scientific point of view, so thats why its hard for me to imagine something of a higher power.

UNderstandable... We've all taken highschool biology (hopefully) which teaches or atleast talks about Evolution... I mean it makes sense and we can prove it.

When it gets to things that people can't prove.. aka where science stops.. there comes religon and philosophy.

Its depends on your beliefs.

[MrsD]

Another awesome thread - I was raised Catholic only to be totally alienated in one way or another from them. I have very strong beliefs, and roxxorzyoursox (what the hell IS your name???? I'll never remember that - your nickname is now roxyoursox as far as I'm concerned!:smiley_aa ) has pretty much hit things right on the head. I too respect all religions, non-religions and thoughts. They're all important. dontarguewiththisguy - you obviously care and think deeply about things. I think you have a belief system that works for you - go with it. After all - isn't that what everyone ELSE does?

On another note - it's really great to have all you new members - you bring a wonderful new life to Bash Anything!!:hug:

[Nightwolf04]

HMM now I've heard other peoples opinion it kind of shifts what I thought (told you I change opinion easily). But what if the big bang was started by God/Goddess/high being spirit thingy? I believe that we have to mix science with religion and maybe we might be able to come up with some form of answer as to what created the universe and if so what are they


...i'm not sure if any of that makes sense...well i only just woke up...

[Mattok]

its all a question of belief isn't it??? i try not to judge others on their beliefs. its tough because as far as i see it, they just haven't seen the truth, but as i said its a matter of belief and faith.
as far as creation, theres people that believe the the seven days in the bible isn't seven literal days but a representation of seven days, i believe that literally, but since the creation there has been evolution, thats a fact, things, the world changes, its evolving now even as your sitting behind your desk reading this, things are changing, thats life

[GoingNova]

I was born a Catholic. In my twenties, I knew everything there was to know about everything :rolleyes:, and so I declared myself an atheist. I had no need for God, and I believed all who did were weak. Then I matured a little, had a life altering experience, and have since gone back to my faith. I believe now more than ever. Ultimately, it all falls back to this one question I ask myself: Is living my life as a Christian, specifically following the Catholic Doctrine, making me a better person? My answer is always a resounding yes. :D

[MrsD]

That's because you are HAPPY with who and what you are. I am certainly not a Catholic however I find myself not knowing how to be anything else. I don't like the Catholic church for a good many reasons but do not denounce it. I FEEL that I am a Christian in that I do the very best I can to do what I think He would want me to do in life. "WWJD" is something I find myself referring to more and more often. I belong to no church in particular (that is unsettling to me, I must admit) but hold my faiths and beliefs near and dear. I am, in essence, happy with who and what I am.

[Djeuve]

That's because you are HAPPY with who and what you are. I am certainly not a Catholic however I find myself not knowing how to be anything else. I don't like the Catholic church for a good many reasons but do not denounce it. I FEEL that I am a Christian in that I do the very best I can to do what I think He would want me to do in life. "WWJD" is something I find myself referring to more and more often. I belong to no church in particular (that is unsettling to me, I must admit) but hold my faiths and beliefs near and dear. I am, in essence, happy with who and what I am.

I respect that a lot. If you are happy with it, and especially, not hurting anyone, I think that's alright. I've had interesting talks with people of different faiths, and learned of the good they hold in their teachings.... That's why I am taken aback when I see blatant disregard for them. How some people will interpret certain aspects of their religious teachings to do horrendous things in the name of their god(s) or religion, explaining that it's for the 'greater good'.... I just don't know.

So, if there's a god/supreme being, I don't know. But I want to believe in the good of people. I try to be good as best as I can. But I can see that doing that without a set cause or morals, I can be unmotivating.

[Firefly557]

i'm not sure what i believe in, being perfectly honest. i think i believe in a balance too many things come in twos for me to ignore that. So on that basis if there is a God then there is an equally powerful Goddess etc. i dont believe that anyone one religion is better than another i mean all religions are generally similar so its just so many different names and images for the same being or power. i think that maybe there isnt a god but a power or lifeforce or something like that which governs over the earth and is swayed and given form by the people that believe that its should appear a certain way and gives it power to change things and is responsible for this world and its seasons and everything in it - but maybe i've just played a little too much final fantasy lol

[Djeuve]

but maybe i've just played a little too much final fantasy lol

Heheh, possible. I wonder sometimes if having read so many fantasy books and played so many RPGs, maybe I just wanted to believe in some other higher form of balance...

Me: If only this world was more like Wheel of Time, the Aes Sedai would take care of everything....

Sorry to those who don't get it. Just to say not to take my moral views too seriously sometimes, since I read more fantasy than current events and news...

:bunny:

[Damm]

You can't trust the Aes Sedai, Djeuve...don't go falling for their lies!

(I apologize a second time to those who haven't read these books...)

[Sicander]

I am a Christian. And I believe, undeniably that there is a God. A universe so complex and so ordered could not occur randomly. In every natural setting order always descends into chaos, never the other way around. I think the reason so many people have trouble understanding God or believing in him is that they always try to apply human limits to him. In allmost every other religion (Excluding, Judaism and Muslim, we all worship the same God) gods have limitations. The Greek and roman gods had human failings, they could lust, they could DIE! East Indian gods, Norse gods, every other god has had limitations. Man cannot conceive of something outside of his experience, therefor when man conceives of a god he applies human limitations to him. Well the Christian God has no limitations of any kind. He has no time or size. He is all knowing all powerfull and completely beyond all comprehension of mankind. He is separate and above all of our rules and has no rules that govern Him. He is was and always will be. The only way man can in even the slightest way describe God is to say that he "is." Man could not have conceived of such a being of his own accord. He could not have birthed it from his own mind, it must have been put their by God.

Lets do a little exercise. Someone please explain to me a universe that bears absolutely no resemblance to ours. That has nothing whatsoever the same. If you can do that then there is no God, but if you cant then there has to be.
I will omit the obvious limitation of written language as if you had even tried this exercise, just by typing you would have failed.

[Klashbash]

I see some of you are Agnostic. A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that. If one claims he has an invisible pink unicorn on his head, do you refuse to answer whether there is one or not? There is no evidence that there is a higher being and thus there is no need to debate if there is one or not. The believers admit that it's a huge leap of faith, thus why question if we know their position is the complete opposite of logic and reason?

There is may unknowns in the world but why do we have to resort in the belief of the supernatural? Science is constantly telling us the answers to our questions, the unknown will be answered in due time. I refuse to live my life full of lies and I want the truth no matter how bad it hurts. Sure, it may be disappointing that there is no everlasting place of joy after death but hey at least there is no hell for people playing a lottery game.

Lottery game you ask? Why certainly! Having blind faith requires one to place their belief into something without thinking critically through with it. The religion they subscribe to will be one they were raised with or one that is the largest in their area. One person may be raised to be a Christian and thus go to heaven but one raised to be Buddhist shall go to hell? This is not justice, this is sick. Both people used exactly the same method for believing in their religion but it was simply a matter of luck where they were born at.

I'm a Atheist. I can't believe in a lie just to make myself happy. I'm also not Agnostic, because I don't need to travel the universe to decide if a three sided cube exists or not. I'm going to use the reason and logic which my brain has given me to find the truth and blast away the lies.

[MrsD]

Insane, at risk of unleashing your ire which I know will happen, I have to bring something up with you. You by admission are an atheist and have noted that we have a couple of agnostic members. You say their stand is "foolish". I disagree. In fact, I think the atheist way of thinking is foolish. Agnostics are pretty much saying they're not quite sure what to believe or not to believe so they're going to hang someplace in the middle to wait things out. You on the other hand have closed the door. Going by your posts quite firmly at that. For someone who portrays themself to be so worldly and wise you are quite judgemental and at first glance seem to think that your view is the only view. Good thing for the rest of us it isn't.

[Sicander]

Having blind faith requires one to place their belief into something without thinking critically through with it.


NOWERE in the Bible does it tell us not to think, not to question, not to analize and critically think about our faith!! IT ANCOURAGES IT!!!!!!!! I have never taken anything to be true no matter what, I do my research and I come to understand things. And since when has Religion become the antitheises to science. The two can go hand in hand. With both we come closer to a full understanding of our world then any other way. We use science to understand the whats and the wheres, we use Religion (I hate that word BTW) to understand the Whys. And we fill the things we cannot and never will comprehend with faith. God didnt want us to be dullards who never question and walk around like robots. He gave us free will because without it we are pointless.

[MrsD]

:applaus: Good post, Sicander.

[Klashbash]

Responding to mrsd607...

Agnostics are pretty much saying they're not quite sure what to believe or not to believe so they're going to hang someplace in the middle to wait things out. You on the other hand have closed the door. Going by your posts quite firmly at that.

What are they going to wait for exactly? Nothing supernatural has happened in the FIVE MILLION YEARS that we humans have been on the planet, nothing is "magically" going to happen in the next five million years. What Agnostics are saying is that they refuse to make a logical decision. Instead of saying, "Gee I don't know" they should dismiss it right at hand as there is no evidence for a god. I have closed the door until I see some evidence, otherwise why should a door be open to ideas that have nothing to back them up?

Responding to Sicander...

NOWERE in the Bible does it tell us not to think, not to question, not to analize and critically think about our faith!! IT ANCOURAGES IT!!!!!!!!

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." --Proverbs 3:5

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." --Proverbs 16:25

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." --2 Corinthians 10:5

Not only do I find it sad I know more of the Bible than you do, but you couldn't show one example of how the Bible encourages thinking. Blind faith is the exact opposite of logic and reason.

And since when has Religion become the antitheises to science

Evolution and Big Bang for starters.

The two can go hand in hand. With both we come closer to a full understanding of our world then any other way. We use science to understand the whats and the wheres, we use Religion (I hate that word BTW) to understand the Whys. And we fill the things we cannot and never will comprehend with faith. God didnt want us to be dullards who never question and walk around like robots. He gave us free will because without it we are pointless.

Science is conducted to find out why things are the way they are, the Bible says the whys are this way just because it says so. The whats and wheres are already the first step, its the experiment which leads to the why. To say that religion and science can go hand in hand is a vast misunderstanding of the most basic fundamentals of each. Oh really? God didn't want us to be robots for his will? If that's true then why did the Bible say do not think as the quotes above mentioned? Free will would be for us not to go to hell if we decided not to believe in him, divine blackmail is not free will. If a mugger points a gun to you and says give me your money or your life, is that really "free will"? In the same instance, god telling you to believe in him or go to hell is that free will?

[Damm]

What are they going to wait for exactly? Nothing supernatural has happened in the FIVE MILLION YEARS that we humans have been on the planet, nothing is "magically" going to happen in the next five million years. What Agnostics are saying is that they refuse to make a logical decision. Instead of saying, "Gee I don't know" they should dismiss it right at hand as there is no evidence for a god. I have closed the door until I see some evidence, otherwise why should a door be open to ideas that have nothing to back them up?


Perhaps I have the definition of "agnostic" wrong, but I always believed it to mean that one believed in a higher power, but did not agree with any of the known religions. Therefore they are not "waiting" for anything, they have decided there is a higher power but they do not believe in "God"

If that's not the proper definition of "agnostic" then please tell me.

[Klashbash]

Responding to Damm...

Perhaps I have the definition of "agnostic" wrong, but I always believed it to mean that one believed in a higher power, but did not agree with any of the known religions. Therefore they are not "waiting" for anything, they have decided there is a higher power but they do not believe in "God"

If that's not the proper definition of "agnostic" then please tell me.

Theist - Believes in a higher being that interacts with the universe.

Deist - Believes in a higher being that created that universe but has abandoned it as it does not interact with the universe.

Agnostic - Believes it is impossible to determine whether a higher being exists or not.

Atheist - Does not believe in any higher being.

[M@Broz]

You can bash certain beliefs, because it IS a debate forum, but you can't bash people for having the beliefs cyborg.

A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that

People are allowed to believe in whatever it is that they want to believe in. You can think what they believe in is foolish, but dont call people foolish for believing what they do.

It was my understanding that Athiests (more or less) believed in Science. If they dont believe in any higher being... would you believe in Science... and philosophy?

[GoingNova]

A nice warning M! Insane has been skating on that "insult line", :laughing3 but so far has not directly insulted anyone in particular yet, although he has come oh so close! :D

Insane, you said "A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that". By adding, "I believe" to that same statement, you just changed it from what can be perceived as insulting, to an opinion. While I personally could see what you posted as an "on the line" post, I do back up M fpr construing it as an insult.

It is just easier if you keep it non-personal. You are turning into a fantastic forum member, contributing quite a bit, and we would prefer you stayed around for a very long time! You are obviously a very bright individual, and I am sure you will figure it out. Thanks for understanding. ;)

[Damm]

Hmm...thanks for the definition. I guess I'm not an agnostic then, I thought it meant something entirely different!

"The more you know..." :p

[M@Broz]

Hmm...thanks for the definition. I guess I'm not an agnostic then, I thought it meant something entirely different!

"The more you know..." :p

Heh... I think actually theres a webQuiz that you can take where it tells you your beliefs after asking you a bunch of questions.

I'll find it and put the URL here sometime. :rolleyes:

[Djeuve]

Cool, I'd like that link too.
For a long time I knew I didn't really feel comfortable following the Catholic view I was born and baptised to, and I also knew I wasn't fully atheist like my sibling... sort of an in between, but I had never encountered the word to describe that, until Agnostic. At the time, it was just lightly explained as the 'middle' ground and I took to it.

Perhaps the given definition doesn't quite fit what I feel about myself. I don't think it's utterly impossible to prove anything or decide on a faith, just, I want to continue looking for what might be right for me.

And oh, how too bad that I have at least a 6 hour difference with North America, since a lot of the hot discussions go on while I sleep! I'd bash it if it were more of a problem, and, furthermore, most of you are in the US anyway...I'd only truly be understood by our brit friends and other people I didn't catch what country they're in at the moment.

[Nightwolf04]

Great post people!

It's realy good to see what others think on this as I only really had firefly's opinion at first.

I have to admit Insane was being pretty nasty about other people's beliefs and seems to think that anything he says is the only opinion you can have and is the right one...well that's what it seemed like anyway.

But thanks for putting the definitions up it can sometimes get really confusing as to what your beliefs are put as.

p.s can I have the link too :D

[Firefly557]

it would be interesting to see what kind of religion your beliefs fall under i think i might have found a test like that myself i'll see which one this is in case its the same one...although i might have dreamt that test since it was a while ago and i'm tired now so....

[Nightwolf04]

you strange ickle girl katrine :P

[Firefly557]

i resent being called ickle although you are taller than me...

[Nightwolf04]

lol so basically i have the point there not you :)

now if i called you a child that would be different

[Klashbash]

Responding to M@Broz...



You can bash certain beliefs, because it IS a debate forum, but you can't bash people for having the beliefs cyborg.


Did I say Agnostics are foolish or did I say a Agnostic's position is foolish? Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing. The difference, if one can not already see is I'm not saying the person is foolish but rather I'm saying a belief of their's is ill founded.


People are allowed to believe in whatever it is that they want to believe in. You can think what they believe in is foolish, but dont call people foolish for believing what they do.

It was my understanding that Athiests (more or less) believed in Science. If they dont believe in any higher being... would you believe in Science... and philosophy?


I agree, it's their right to believe what they want. I have yet to call anyone foolish, all I have done is call a certain belief of their's ill unfounded.


Yes of course, Science and philosophy are instruments of logic and reason.


Responding to GoingNova...


Insane, you said "A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that". By adding, "I believe" to that same statement, you just changed it from what can be perceived as insulting, to an opinion. While I personally could see what you posted as an "on the line" post, I do back up M fpr construing it as an insult.


What difference would there truly be if I said, "I believe?" It's my opinion right from the start and I didn't say anyone was foolish but I said a certain belief of theirs is ill founded.


I think the atheist way of thinking is foolish. ~ mrsd607


A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that ~ Me


There's no difference between these two lines except one says the Atheists's position is ill founded and the other is saying an Agnostic's position is ill founded. Note that I place two times the word position, there's nothing indicating in that sentence that I meant the person directly is foolish. What you're saying is I add the word "I believe" just for the sake of saying it, even though its placed inside the sentence already as its my opinion. Maybe I should just add I believe to every single sentence I post? Come on now, really.


It is just easier if you keep it non-personal. You are turning into a fantastic forum member, contributing quite a bit, and we would prefer you stayed around for a very long time! You are obviously a very bright individual, and I am sure you will figure it out. Thanks for understanding.


I have yet to make anything personal. Thank you for your kind comments but I think both you and M@Broz have a misunderstanding upon what I said. I completely agree with the premise that there should be no flaming on the site and to keep it civilized, but you guys over step the line and go against anything that may in the slightest sound offensive to someone else. You tell me to use the words,"I believe" yet that is already in every sentence one posts because it is their opinion... seems you want to sugar coat it.

[M@Broz]

I think this is the link:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Check it out!

[Firefly557]

very cool but not the one i was thinking of (many many times better than it tho lol) unsurprisingly i have most in common with neo-pagans

[Damm]

Hmmm...I didn't agree with the results of the quiz. So, I guess I will continue to explain myself as "Spiritual" and when asked further I'll just say "It has something to do with Quantum Physics."

It's vague..but then, so am I!

[Firefly557]

take refuge in the vague!!!

[Nightwolf04]

lol i agree with you two

[Firefly557]

taking refuge in the vague? and being unsurprisingly neo-pagan....

[Nightwolf04]

LoL

[Djeuve]

Hmm, took the test and apparantly I am some sort of Universal Unitaritan? Probably spelled that wrong...I did it a few hours ago...

Sigh...maybe I should stop looking for a self definition that I might never fully understand and concentrate on my initial search for belief...no need to name it if I find satisfaction. :thumbsup:

[Damm]

That's what I got too...I read it, and it seemed to be all over the place, but still based on christianity. I don't agree with christianity, so I didn't pay much attention to it.

I like having my own personal beliefs, that have no official name.

[Sicander]

Responding to Sicander...



"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." --Proverbs 3:5

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." --Proverbs 16:25

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." --2 Corinthians 10:5

Not only do I find it sad I know more of the Bible than you do, but you couldn't show one example of how the Bible encourages thinking. Blind faith is the exact opposite of logic and reason.



Evolution and Big Bang for starters.



Science is conducted to find out why things are the way they are, the Bible says the whys are this way just because it says so. The whats and wheres are already the first step, its the experiment which leads to the why. To say that religion and science can go hand in hand is a vast misunderstanding of the most basic fundamentals of each. Oh really? God didn't want us to be robots for his will? If that's true then why did the Bible say do not think as the quotes above mentioned? Free will would be for us not to go to hell if we decided not to believe in him, divine blackmail is not free will. If a mugger points a gun to you and says give me your money or your life, is that really "free will"? In the same instance, god telling you to believe in him or go to hell is that free will?


Wow, were do I start. Lets see.

on proverbs 3:5

I don't see whats wrong with this one. If read read the whole thing you will notice that it doesn't involve science and free will. It goes "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, (OK why not if He is all powerful why shouldn't I?) and lean not on your own understanding, (here is the kicker, the way I interprate that is that we should IN FACT look beyond what we "Know" and explore our world and seek truth. In the dark ages people leaned entirely on their own understanding and accepted everything they see at face value.) In all your ways acknowledge Him (Live your like in the likeness of God and in everything you do, do it to honor Him) and He shall straighten your path. (God, for me, has been the greatest tool in my understanding of the sciences, its amazing what He will reveal to you if given the chance)

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." --Proverbs 16:25

OK you were way off base on this one, it is speaking of morality and sin, not science. It has nothing to do with this argument

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." --2 Corinthians 10:5

OK again way off base here the bible is talking about idol worship.

and the truth is we are not robots to His will. If we were we wouldn't be having this conversation. God gave you the free will to disagree with Him. Your doing that now. And the "Life" God is "Threatening" you with is your eternal soul, not your flesh and blood. If you don't believe in the afterlife then this shouldn't be a problem for you. But riddle me this. If you are right and I am wrong when we die we both just fade away and nothing remains, BUT if I am right and you are wrong, then you burn in horrible agony for all of eternity separated from God in the worst place possible, and I get to go to heaven and be at peace and bliss and joy for all eternity. So I'm gonna go with the safer option.

[Djeuve]

If you are right and I am wrong when we die we both just fade away and nothing remains, BUT if I am right and you are wrong, then you burn in horrible agony for all of eternity separated from God in the worst place possible, and I get to go to heaven and be at peace and bliss and joy for all eternity. So I'm gonna go with the safer option.

But this sounds to me that if you're just taking the 'safer' path in case there is a heaven, you're not taking on the beliefs for the right reasons...

Choosing (or staying with) a faith shouldn't be like choosing the right car insurance, right?

Pardon me, though, if you are indeed following your faith for other reasons than just personnal 'what if...' security. Just, your wording seems to me like someone aking others to try a certain product like on TV...

[Sicander]

But this sounds to me that if you're just taking the 'safer' path in case there is a heaven, you're not taking on the beliefs for the right reasons...

Choosing (or staying with) a faith shouldn't be like choosing the right car insurance, right?

Pardon me, though, if you are indeed following your faith for other reasons than just personnal 'what if...' security. Just, your wording seems to me like someone aking others to try a certain product like on TV...


You misunderstand, its just a argument tool i use to proove a point. I dont belive in God simply because its safer, it goes much farther than that. Its just one of countless reasons. And its a south park quote, (sometimes they are smarter than they think)

[Djeuve]

Heh, I know what you mean.

What South Park episode was that? I've only seen the more recent stuff and missed out on the good ol' originals...

As for the discussion, we've gotten atheists, agnostics (among other undeterminable categories), and Christians to voice their opinions, but...what about other religions?

[Sicander]

Heh, I know what you mean.

What South Park episode was that? I've only seen the more recent stuff and missed out on the good ol' originals...


It was the one were kyle wanted to be baptised because the other kids said he would go to hell if he didnt and his parents told him hell wasnt real.

[dont argue with this guy]

wow good posting. i've been gone for a few days, but i liked everyones posts. I think insane crossed the line a little bit, and should show a little more respect towards other peoples religion. People should not have to feel down about what they believe in. And even though you may not have meant to harm anyone, I am sure some people could have been very insulted by your remarks. However, you did put up a good argument.

I just think that athiests are only thinking of a more logical, scientific reason for everything. For example, the virgin mary or the parting of the oceans. It simply cannot happen. You gotta have sex to have a baby, and making a walkway in the middle of the ocean is impossible, and thats science.

[Sicander]

I just think that athiests are only thinking of a more logical, scientific reason for everything. For example, the virgin mary or the parting of the oceans. It simply cannot happen. You gotta have sex to have a baby, and making a walkway in the middle of the ocean is impossible, and thats science.


What your talking about are miracles, Gods power made manfest, don't you think if God could form the universe and create life itself he could make water splite and virgins birth? See the only matters were I find I can have blind faith are in the area of miracles. They are by thier nature, beyond science, so they cannot be explained by it. Don't get me wrong though, I don't think miracles are happening NOW. Because faith requires that we have no proof, (otherwise its not faith) God does not give us proof. If we could see touch and feal God then again we have the free will issue. If we knew, beyond all shadow of doubt, we would be pointless.

[GoingNova]

The whole point of free will is for God to lay out his plan to you, His "Rules" if you will. You are free to follow them or not. If God gave everyone proof, then there really wouldn't be any free will involved: you would believe because you KNEW.

For the record, I am a Catholic. Whenever I get doubts about my faith I think back to the Twelve Disciples of Jesus Christ, and I ponder the following: what, if not that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, did these men see in Him? All of them except one, Saint John, died HORRIBLY TORTUROUS deaths, similar to Jesus. Why? Why would any man allow themselves to be tortured like that? They had no real power back them, so it is not like today where the church has established power. Those men had nothing. Why not renounce Jesus and live, rather than be killed?

To me, it is obvious: they saw Jesus Christ for what He was, and nothing man could do to them here on earth would deter them from entering Heaven and being with Jesus. Even though it meant facing the brutal deaths that lay in store for them, they knew first hand what awaited them in Heaven.

I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe, but I just thought I would share that with you folks. Take it for what it is worth. :)

[MrsD]

Quote from Nova: The whole point of free will is for God to lay out his plan to you, His "Rules" if you will. You are free to follow them or not. If God gave everyone proof, then there really wouldn't be any free will involved: you would believe because you KNEW.

I at one time thought that agnostics and atheists had taken the "easy way out". I was wrong. I hope some day you find resolution or total happiness you so much deserve. Your stance is not an easy one - there IS an answer, I'm sure. I am NOT a Catholic. I don't really know WHAT the hell I am, but I can tell you I'm NOT Catholic. I believe and trust in God the Almighty and know that Jesus Christ died for our sins and look forward to the 2nd Coming. That's about all I can say!!

[Djeuve]

There is something I feel uncomfortable with when it comes to Christianity. It is supposed to be a worship of God and all, but (not so much anymore) people pray to Saints as though they were lesser Gods of the Christian pantheon...

Some people even pray to Jesus.

I realise that since people can only think and visualise something with a certain limit, they need something they can see so they can pray to it...but doesn't that border on worshiping Idols?

Let me stop here and say I'm not trying to prove some point, rather, I am asking. I really want to know.

So, knowing that, a lot of religions pray to A God, even if that God is not quite the same in all...but, would that matter as long as you keep good faith in that God, or in some cases, a set of moral values?

In that way, then it would not be condemning Buddhists and Muslims, or people in the far reaches of the world who have never even heard of the Christian faith, straight to hell... wouldn't it?

That's why I feel uncomfortable when I think about choosing a faith... I'd be afraid I'd just think: "Hah! I'M in the right one, and YOU'RE going to Hell!!" Just sounds unfair and unbalanced to me...arrogant to some extent...

[Nightwolf04]

This is kind of like the conversation me anf firefly's family were having...we moved on to sins. Technically what is a sin? things like that because you cannot define something like that. Mainly because I believe that no matter what we do in religion there's always going to be someone who has a retort to it.

I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone??

[Firefly557]

i have something to say on that miracle front (a litle delayed i know but i was asleep when it was posted so i think i'm forgiven lol) well manyly just about the parting of the red sea. it is possible that that happened as there are supposed to be tides that leave it so that you can cross part of the red sea (at least i think its the red sea..please correct me if i'm wrong) when the tides are a certain way and this may be the basis of this "miracle" that got hyped up into what it is now (but this is all according to a memory of what my dad told me so i could be completely wrong).

Other religion's PoVs hmm lets go for wicca as i have had a good experience with and know quite a lot about it. firstly wicca isn't devil worship or anything to do with christianity (just to clear that up :)) wiccans belief in the divinity of the Goddess and her presence in everything and believe in protecting the environment among other things. there are many different schools of belief in wicca and many more under the pagan umbrella but wiccan is essentially worship of the divine feminine rather than the masculine of christianity.

[M@Broz]

i have something to say on that miracle front (a litle delayed i know but i was asleep when it was posted so i think i'm forgiven lol) well manyly just about the parting of the red sea. it is possible that that happened as there are supposed to be tides that leave it so that you can cross part of the red sea (at least i think its the red sea..please correct me if i'm wrong) when the tides are a certain way and this may be the basis of this "miracle" that got hyped up into what it is now (but this is all according to a memory of what my dad told me so i could be completely wrong).

Other religion's PoVs hmm lets go for wicca as i have had a good experience with and know quite a lot about it. firstly wicca isn't devil worship or anything to do with christianity (just to clear that up :)) wiccans belief in the divinity of the Goddess and her presence in everything and believe in protecting the environment among other things. there are many different schools of belief in wicca and many more under the pagan umbrella but wiccan is essentially worship of the divine feminine rather than the masculine of christianity.

Hmm interesting. I've never had the wiccan religion placed out for me so simply in black and white.

...atleast i understand it now :p

[Firefly557]

glad to be of service....although i may not have everything or be wrong on somethings so please correct me if i'm wrong on anything

[GoingNova]

There is something I feel uncomfortable with when it comes to Christianity. It is supposed to be a worship of God and all, but (not so much anymore) people pray to Saints as though they were lesser Gods of the Christian pantheon...

Some people even pray to Jesus.

I realise that since people can only think and visualise something with a certain limit, they need something they can see so they can pray to it...but doesn't that border on worshiping Idols?

Let me stop here and say I'm not trying to prove some point, rather, I am asking. I really want to know.

So, knowing that, a lot of religions pray to A God, even if that God is not quite the same in all...but, would that matter as long as you keep good faith in that God, or in some cases, a set of moral values?

In that way, then it would not be condemning Buddhists and Muslims, or people in the far reaches of the world who have never even heard of the Christian faith, straight to hell... wouldn't it?

That's why I feel uncomfortable when I think about choosing a faith... I'd be afraid I'd just think: "Hah! I'M in the right one, and YOU'RE going to Hell!!" Just sounds unfair and unbalanced to me...arrogant to some extent...

I am running out the door now, and don't have time to respond, but when I get the chance, I will offer you what little knowledge I have on some of the questions you asked. You have a wonderful querying mind, and all of your questions are quite valid! ;)

[Djeuve]

I'd really appreciate that, thank you! I look forward to reading what you have to say.

:bunny:

[Klashbash]

Responding to Sicander…


Wow, were do I start. Lets see.

on proverbs 3:5

I don't see whats wrong with this one. If read read the whole thing you will notice that it doesn't involve science and free will. It goes "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, (OK why not if He is all powerful why shouldn't I?) and lean not on your own understanding, (here is the kicker, the way I interprate that is that we should IN FACT look beyond what we "Know" and explore our world and seek truth. In the dark ages people leaned entirely on their own understanding and accepted everything they see at face value.) In all your ways acknowledge Him (Live your like in the likeness of God and in everything you do, do it to honor Him) and He shall straighten your path. (God, for me, has been the greatest tool in my understanding of the sciences, its amazing what He will reveal to you if given the chance)


It doesn’t have to specifically say science and free will to have that passage to relate to it. To trust someone with all one’s heart is for a person never to question them that one will always believe they will do the right thing. No, you’re completely off the base there. What does it say? Come on now. Lean not on your own understanding which means do not think for yourself, as god knows everything and since you trust in him fully there is no reason to think. What do you not understand about the phrase "do not"? There is NOTHING indicating in that, that we should think for ourselves but instead it says exactly the opposite.

The Dark Ages was the ONLY period in history where religion truly flourished. New technologies didn't come around, there wasn't anything to constantly challenge religion for the complete blindness that it is. God revealed himself in the Bible to me as a brutal dictator.

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." --Proverbs 16:25

OK you were way off base on this one, it is speaking of morality and sin, not science. It has nothing to do with this argument

Nice try at limiting the obvious broad tone but it isn't going to fly with me. It isn't set to certain things like morality and sin, it is talking of any ways that seem right to a man (Reason and logic) that is the way to hell (Blind faith is what you should do, as reason and logic will lead you to any place but religion).

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." --2 Corinthians 10:5

OK again way off base here the bible is talking about idol worship.

Nice try yet again but right after it talks about idol worship it says and EVERY high thing that places itself higher than the knowledge of god. Questioning god with reason and logic is to say there is a possibility that the logic in the matter that one thinks of is of a more intelligent nature than god's. Face it, the Bible commands you to be a sheep and for god to be the Shepard. It is impossible for one to logically reason that religion is the best choice, believing in religion is one of emotion not one of reason.

and the truth is we are not robots to His will. If we were we wouldn't be having this conversation. God gave you the free will to disagree with Him. Your doing that now. And the "Life" God is "Threatening" you with is your eternal soul, not your flesh and blood. If you don't believe in the afterlife then this shouldn't be a problem for you. But riddle me this. If you are right and I am wrong when we die we both just fade away and nothing remains, BUT if I am right and you are wrong, then you burn in horrible agony for all of eternity separated from God in the worst place possible, and I get to go to heaven and be at peace and bliss and joy for all eternity. So I'm gonna go with the safer option.

The mugger in the example also gives you the "free will" of not giving him the money but instead rather your life. That is not free will that is blackmail. God is black mailing EVERYONE. Yes, I know we're talking about the soul here. I love it how Christians act like people don't know the easy basics of Christianity, yet you people have been cramming it down our throats since we were little. Jesus this, Jesus that... Jesus is actually a sick brutal dictator who has wiped out innocent people through out the Bible simply because they didn't believe in him. Yes, Jesus did that since god, jesus and the holy spirit are a trinity in one. We know it already.

Let’s play the ratio game to see how safe you are.

There are over 5,000 religions.
There are over 50,000 beliefs that are not of official religions.
There is only one life you have.

Not included factors are how absurd each in every one is that believes in an after life.

Your one life -
1: 55,000+

Congratulations, you're safer by a ratio of one to over fifty five thousand yet you have wasted your whole life to achieve that.

Responding to GoingNova...

The whole point of free will is for God to lay out his plan to you, His "Rules" if you will. You are free to follow them or not. If God gave everyone proof, then there really wouldn't be any free will involved: you would believe because you KNEW.

Free will would be for god to have no punishment if you choose not to believe in him. Black mail is him forcing you to believe in him or go to hell. It's a simple concept.

[Sicander]

Responding to Sicander…


Congratulations, you're safer by a ratio of one to over fifty five thousand yet you have wasted your whole life to achieve that..

In your equation do you list the amount of "religions" (I told you I hate that word) believe in Hell? Most, in fact almost all other religions do not have a hell, they have a purgatory state were you are nothing and cease to be. Therefor by my logic it is still better to go with my faith.

So you think Im wasting my life? What was it that made you come to the conclusion that I am a waste of space. Am I a criminal? Have I harmed anyone by believing what I do? If I am satisified with my life, then how is it wasted. If you think God doesnt allow you free will by saying you will go to hell when you die, why are you concerned in the slightest, since you abviously do not believe in hell. Do I not have the free will to believe in God. Wouldn't I be less of a man if I believed I knew the one true way to eternal joy and then did not share that knowledge with the world. You yourself are exersizing free will by not believing in God, but how can you claim free will exists and still tell me that I have wasted my life.




Free will would be for god to have no punishment if you choose not to believe in him. Black mail is him forcing you to believe in him or go to hell. It's a simple concept.


I applaud determination and I applaud you for putting up a debate without taking it to directions it shouldn't have gone. (you got close with that wasted my life comment though, I'm more than a little miffed at that one) However I think its time we end this we have both presented our cases and we are differing of oppinion, and nothing you say is going to change mine and apparently nothing I say is going to change yours, so in the best intrest of both our cases we should end this now, before one of us says something they will regret and the mods will regret. Just remember this, I am a Christian, and I am a man of the sciences who thinks and expands his mind to new ideas and horizons, but I still belive in God, and Im not the exeption to the rule.

[Sicander]

Originally Posted by Djeuve
There is something I feel uncomfortable with when it comes to Christianity. It is supposed to be a worship of God and all, but (not so much anymore) people pray to Saints as though they were lesser Gods of the Christian pantheon...
Remember there is a difference between prodistants and cotholics, I in fact do not worship saints (And neitehr do they) Catholics pray to them as intermediaries to God, I personnaly believe God needs no intermeadiary. And pantheon is totally the wong word. Its a trinity, three in one, its a hard concept to wrap ones mind around but this might help (or totaly confuse you) The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the same being one unified whole, but they do different things, just remeber we cant apply human limitations to God, He can be in more than one place at once and can be as many persons as He wishes, He has absolutly no limitations.
Some people even pray to Jesus.
As stated above, same guy.
I realise that since people can only think and visualise something with a certain limit, they need something they can see so they can pray to it...but doesn't that border on worshiping Idols?
An act becomes idol worsip when the idol becomes more important than God. If its about the worship and not the one being worshiped, it is idol worship.
Let me stop here and say I'm not trying to prove some point, rather, I am asking. I really want to know.

So, knowing that, a lot of religions pray to A God, even if that God is not quite the same in all...but, would that matter as long as you keep good faith in that God, or in some cases, a set of moral values?
For God to be all powerfull it requires that He be the ONLY God. You cant have two all powerfull beings, then they wouldnt be all powerfull.
In that way, then it would not be condemning Buddhists and Muslims, or people in the far reaches of the world who have never even heard of the Christian faith, straight to hell... wouldn't it?

Not completely, this is an issue that bothers alot of people. I have no problem with it. Basically a person can (Provided he has NO knowledge of God and the Bible) still go to heaven, he has to live to the ideals of God, and must realize a few important things, that there is only one God,(Remember that only one all powerfull being can exist, and thats logical a sutably intelligent human can realize that) They must also have a personal relationship with Him. I belive God will reviel Himself to people who will never be told otherwise. But as a christian I have to realize that these people exist and go forth and tell them the good news. Thusly we have Missionaries. (I was one for a while)

That's why I feel uncomfortable when I think about choosing a faith... I'd be afraid I'd just think: "Hah! I'M in the right one, and YOU'RE going to Hell!!" Just sounds unfair and unbalanced to me...arrogant to some extent...

Christians are never arrogant about thier faith, If I were to laugh at you becuase im right and your wrong how does that make ME a christian. My job is to make sure you have the chance to know God. Never to force it on you or dissmiss you. If I force it on you it doesnt work it has to be a concious choice made by you, not me.
Hope that clears things up

Forgive me for the spelling errors, Im typing while standing and the spell checker isnt working for some reason.

[dont argue with this guy]

I agree with you sicander, in that if people are happy with what they believe in, then it is not wasting your life. If someone is happy thinking that there are ghosts, or aliens, then let them be, theyre happy! and i dont think anyone should try to take that away from them. I just like to express my opinion, not frown on other peoples beliefs.

[Sicander]

Now dont get me wrong. I do VERY ofter frown on other peoples beliefs. But I NEVER frown on other people. The bible teaches us to hate sin and not the sinner. I personaly think that all other beliefes are wrong, but I dont condemn anyone for it. Its about winning souls here not lording my beliefs over theirs. Thats not how you win people over. I have nothing but love for my fellow man but I often times despise what he/she does.

[dont argue with this guy]

so are you saying that there is only one "right way"? and all other religions can't possibly be valid?

[Sicander]

Yup I am. But Im not saying I hate you because of it. My faith, to work, can only be the right way to salvation. And thats why so many people don't like it. But ALWAYS remember I DO NOT hate anyone. I hate what people do, I hate what people become but I do not hate people. ANd just because I think my way is the only way does not mean Im going to MAKE you believe it. Its your choice.

[dont argue with this guy]

how can you be so sure there is a one and only right way?

[Sicander]

Faith and logic. I belive in an all powerfull God. An all powerfull God cannot allow for other gods. Logically it can't work. If you want to know why I believe what I believe send me a PM it could take a LOOOOOONG time.

[dont argue with this guy]

so when we all die, and you turn out to be wrong about your beliefs, won't you feel silly for not even considering the possibility of other religions being true?

[Sicander]

Thats the risk we all take. I don't see a risk though. I am confident. And belive me Ive done my homework. I came to my faith not blindly. I know the other religons. Ive done ALOT of studying. And this is the only one I think works.

[Djeuve]

I'm curious about something else. What about the Jewish faith? Don't they believe in pretty much the same God? I don't know if they have a hell or not, though... But, how would you (all) think of their place in the afterlife?

Are they wrong and end up sometwhere? Or because of their belief in one God and moral values, they would end up in heaven?

[Sicander]

There is one big glaring massive difference between judaism and christianity. Jesus. They do not believe He was the son of God and they are still waiting for thier Messiah. In my faith no they don't end up In heaven becuse they have to accept Jesus.

[Firefly557]

so Sicander your saying that if a man has no knowledge of the bible and God but believes in one god and lives his life well in accordance to his faith will go to "heaven" but anyone who knows of the bible and God but believes in God in a different form or a god's power divided between many faces (like the ancient pagan religions) wont and the way they worship the same force is completely wrong as yours is the only way to "salvation"....

[Djeuve]

Basically a person can (Provided he has NO knowledge of God and the Bible) still go to heaven, he has to live to the ideals of God, and must realize a few important things, that there is only one God,(Remember that only one all powerfull being can exist, and thats logical a sutably intelligent human can realize that) They must also have a personal relationship with Him. I belive God will reviel Himself to people who will never be told otherwise.

So, what makes Judaism so different that they would not go to heaven, other than not accepting Jesus as the Messiah? Jesus is the son of God, not God Himself. If they basically follow the same teachings from the Bible, how does choosing a slightly different path condemning them?

[Damm]

I honestly think that as long as you have reverence for something greater than yourself, and live life based on solid morals...then you should be fine in the eyes of that greater power.

But that's just me.

[Sicander]

Its not a slightly different path. They are denying the son of God. Jesus IS God Himself, they are the same person! They are rejecting God by rejecting Jesus. The do not aknowledge that He died for thier sins as an everlasting sacrifice. HE died so that we might live. YOU HAVE to accept Jesus to enter the kingdom of heaven (eccept whening the example I gave you previously of the person who had NO knowledge whatsoever of Jesus)

[Sicander]

so Sicander your saying that if a man has no knowledge of the bible and God but believes in one god and lives his life well in accordance to his faith will go to "heaven" but anyone who knows of the bible and God but believes in God in a different form or a god's power divided between many faces (like the ancient pagan religions) wont and the way they worship the same force is completely wrong as yours is the only way to "salvation"....


In a word, Yes. And sorry pagans do not worship the same God, Ive known quite a few. One of my beast friends is one. God is not "some force" He is God. He isnt a force he is THE force. (Not starwars lol) And you seriously need to remember I am not condemning you. I am spreading the word so that you will know, the choice is yours I dont force anything on anyone. You are free to believe what you want and I am free to tell you your wrong. Thats the essence of free speach. If you choose to not listen to my words then you have made your choice.

[Damm]

Interesting. I wouldn't want to be "one and the same" with my father....but then again, my father isn't all knowing and all powerful.

I like how you mention free speech, Sicander. I was thinking earlier that all of us here are truly lucky to be living in a society where we can have a frank and honest discussion about our differing views of religion, without fear of prosecution.

[Sicander]

Interesting. I wouldn't want to be "one and the same" with my father....but then again, my father isn't all knowing and all powerful.

I like how you mention free speech, Sicander. I was thinking earlier that all of us here are truly lucky to be living in a society where we can have a frank and honest discussion about our differing views of religion, without fear of prosecution.

If you read back I made an attempt at explaining the holy trinity thing it might help clear som things up. And you are right we are very lucky to be having this conversation. Ive have friends doing missionary work in countries that if the Government new that they were christian they would be killed. There are alot of places like that left in the world. And if you follow the non main stream news you will notice that that is now changing, at least in the middle east. Go saudi arabia!!!!! women voting for the first time ever! Freedom is sprouting like weeds over there right now but you would never know, the news never reports on it.

[GoingNova]

There is something I feel uncomfortable with when it comes to Christianity. It is supposed to be a worship of God and all, but (not so much anymore) people pray to Saints as though they were lesser Gods of the Christian pantheon...

Some people even pray to Jesus.

I realise that since people can only think and visualise something with a certain limit, they need something they can see so they can pray to it...but doesn't that border on worshiping Idols?

Let me stop here and say I'm not trying to prove some point, rather, I am asking. I really want to know.

So, knowing that, a lot of religions pray to A God, even if that God is not quite the same in all...but, would that matter as long as you keep good faith in that God, or in some cases, a set of moral values?

In that way, then it would not be condemning Buddhists and Muslims, or people in the far reaches of the world who have never even heard of the Christian faith, straight to hell... wouldn't it?

That's why I feel uncomfortable when I think about choosing a faith... I'd be afraid I'd just think: "Hah! I'M in the right one, and YOU'RE going to Hell!!" Just sounds unfair and unbalanced to me...arrogant to some extent...

OK, let me try and field this. I am going from memory, so if I say something inaccurate, and anyone sees it, please correct me.

The Bible is made up of two main parts, the Old Testament, and the New Testament. Before The Old Testament is the world of God BEFORE the coming of Jesus Christ, and both Jews and Christians believe it and follow it. In the Old Testament, among the many things that happened, there is a prophecy of the coming of God. Jews believe in and acknowledge Jesus as a prophet, but do not believe that He was the son of God. Christians do, and it is at this part that Jews and Christians part ways.

I am a Catholic, which was the first Christian Faith. According to my faith, Jesus assigned Saint Peter to be the first Pope. Jesus told Saint Peter

From Matthew 16:18-19
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Catholics believe that Jesus named Peter the first Pope of the Church, and gave him the power to create Church Law. Further, God will make whatever the Church dictates happen.

The Greek Orthodox church is essentially the same as the original Catholic Church, except they do not accept the idea of the Pope being able to make religious law. They do not recognize the covenant between Jesus made with Saint Peter. They also never changed many of the original Catholic Church laws, and so they are they follow the church's more, for lack of a better word, "stricter" rules. For example, I believe they still say mass in Latin. Catholics believe that as the times changes, so much God's Laws here on Earth to better reflect the times, and have "Vatican Councils", which are pretty rare events, to "update" Church Law.

So, you had the original Church, The Catholic Church, and then you have the Greek Orthodox Church. Those are the first two forms of Christianity. All the other branches of Christianity, such as the Lutherans and the Baptists, all split from the Catholic Church for various reasons. Essentially, all Christians believe as Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour, but believe different things about how we should live here on earth. As a Catholic, I strongly believe what Pope John Paul II said, which was, "The Church is PERFECT. It is the people within the Church that make it imperfect". In essence, what he was saying was that the Catholic Church as an institution is PERFECT, but many evil, corrupt, and somtimes downright inept, people have run the Church, and it is they who have done wrong, not the Church. As I said, I agree with that. There has been much corruption, and many bad decisions made on the part of the Catholic Church, but again, I believe the individuals make these mistakes in the name of the Church are to blame, not the Church itself.

In regards to Saints, when you "pray to a Saint", you are not doing so to worship him or her. You are asking them, since they are closer to God, to go before God and petition God in your favor. It is sort of like "having a friend in a high place who has the ear of God" to put in a "good word" for you. It is not meant to replace God in ANY WAY, and while praying to God directly is certainly never wrong, the Church believes that some people may have trouble so doing so. Saints are humans that lived lives worthy of respect, and served as examples for their fellow Christians. In no way, shape or form are you meant to pray to a Saint to grant you anything other than "putting in a good word" to God. It is the equivalent of asking your family and friends to pray for you when you are sick. You are asking the Saint to pray for you as well. Nothing more, nothing less.

In regards to praying to Jesus, we Catholics believe in the "Holy Trinity", which is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We believe that God is in heaven, He manifested himself here on Earth through His Son Jesus, and also lives in spirit form as the Holy Spirit. You often here "God sent the Holy Spirit", which means God came down to earth in spirit form, and the manifested Himself as the "Holy Spirit". So, when you pray to Jesus, you are actually praying to God, since Jesus was God on earth. We also call this the "Holy Mystery", and we do not profess to understand it fully.

I love my Church, and I find it's formality to be comforting. I was a "self professed atheist" for a while and I have to say, after not going to church for 20 years, and then going back to the same thing, it was very comforting. Not much has changed in 20 years, and that made me feel warm inside. :D

The "Official Catholic Handbook" is called the Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html).

[Sicander]

Now none of you get me wrong I have nothing agaist catholics. We are all Gods children. I don't think some of thier ideas are right but that doesn't mean I think they are going to hell, quite the contrary there is some order and law in catholocism that modern christianity lacks. We are to laid back at times and it causes many of us to slip. Cough Cough TBN cough Tammy Fay Cough Cough. We have our bad eggs too. And GoingNova is right, there is nothing wrong with the form and function of the catholic church but somtimes those laws can open doors for bad people. Everyone Christian or Catholic, just needs to remember that the important thing, the most important thing is the personal relationship we have with Christ. The form and funtion wont get you there, it is Jesus alone that can get you into the kingdom of heaven, form and ritual just help people stay the path.

[Damm]

Those are great posts. We need some Jews, Muslims, and people of eastern religions on this forum so I can learn all about their religions too. This is fun.

[GoingNova]

I edited my post a little. I added a little more to it, including a link to the "Official Catholic Handbook", which is known as the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html).

[Mattok]

hey nova i got a question that i have never understood, but never really wonderd about till i read your post. ok you said that saints pretty much 'put in a good word for you'? right? well what about purgatory, dont cathloics belive in that? how can they put in a word for you if they are in purgatory???

[Nightwolf04]

Sicander after reading some of your posts it seems like your completely dismissing some of the other religions apart from Catholics and Christians. If you actually took a look at pagans you'd realise that pagans and christians on in some ways similar.

...and what if I don't want to be Gods child??

I mean I'm not totally against Christianity. But I have to admit I find the whole adam and eve and the rest of the storie completely made up. I'm not trying to offended I've just always believe that the bible was made up from some people who had nothing better to do and thought hey why not make a holy book and start a religion.

I guess science is starting to effect me... I jsut don't see how a man has the power to do any of the things in the bible, Jesus may have well been just a really nice man who helped people and somehow got caught up into being God's son.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here it's hard to put some of it into words...

[GoingNova]

hey nova i got a question that i have never understood, but never really wonderd about till i read your post. ok you said that saints pretty much 'put in a good word for you'? right? well what about purgatory, dont cathloics belive in that? how can they put in a word for you if they are in purgatory???

Purgatory, I LOVE THIS CONCEPT! It is quite simple, purgatory is a place where you go to prepare for your eventual meeting with God in heaven. It is not HELL, and it is not HEAVEN. It is also temporary. You go there to amend for your less than perfect life. The reason I love this concept is, well, it just seems so fair to me. There are good people who live their lives very closely to the way Jesus lived, let's say like Mother Theresa. Then you have people like me, who are basically good people, but are far from Mother Theresa. According to Catholic Dogma, I would go to purgatory when I die, to learn the error of my ways, and cleanse myself in preparation to meet God.

So, just because you are in Purgatory, does not mean you will be there forever, and when people pray for you, they are praying that you will meet with God as soon as possible. In fact, there is a day called "All Souls Days", which is dedicated to all of the souls in Purgatory, while they wait to get to Heaven.

[GoingNova]

Sicander after reading some of your posts it seems like your completely dismissing some of the other religions apart from Catholics and Christians. If you actually took a look at pagans you'd realise that pagans and christians on in some ways similar.

...and what if I don't want to be Gods child??


Well, as a Christian, I do "dismiss" other religions as well. By believing in Christianity, I pretty much have to. That does not mean I do not respect other religions. I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, but I of course dismiss any other religion other than Christianity as incorrect. If you don't do that, then how strong is your faith? That is not to say that I think myself better than a Jew or a Muslim. I do not. I just do not think they are correct in their relgious beliefs. We disagree, that is all.

I mean I'm not totally against Christianity. But I have to admit I find the whole adam and eve and the rest of the storie completely made up. I'm not trying to offended I've just always believe that the bible was made up from some people who had nothing better to do and thought hey why not make a holy book and start a religion.

Adam and Eve is not meant to be taken literally. It is a representation of the creation of man. As far as the Bible being made up, well, you have to have faith. Might I suggest you read the "Bible Code", a very interesting book.

I guess science is starting to effect me... I jsut don't see how a man has the power to do any of the things in the bible, Jesus may have well been just a really nice man who helped people and somehow got caught up into being God's son.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here it's hard to put some of it into words...

For me, it falls back to my first post. Why would Jesus and his followers let themselves get horribly tortured and put to death back if they did not believe. Anyway, I have to run off to work now. Stay well. ;)

[Nightwolf04]

True but still there is no certain prove that Jesus did actually exsist so he might not have gone through all that suffering.

But you make good points and I'm glad you don't completely ignore other people's views on religion. :)

[GoingNova]

True but still there is no certain prove that Jesus did actually exsist so he might not have gone through all that suffering.

I do think there is historical proof that he existed. The Romans kept excellent records, and there is documentation of his excecution. I have to research it further and get back to you. ;)

[Firefly557]

In a word, Yes. And sorry pagans do not worship the same God, Ive known quite a few. One of my beast friends is one. God is not "some force" He is God. He isnt a force he is THE force. (Not starwars lol) And you seriously need to remember I am not condemning you. I am spreading the word so that you will know, the choice is yours I dont force anything on anyone. You are free to believe what you want and I am free to tell you your wrong. Thats the essence of free speach. If you choose to not listen to my words then you have made your choice.

I didn't mean "some force" i mean THE Force (like life stream but not....), God is just the way you perceive it and all the other religions give that Force a different face and another way to see it. there is something about the Christian faith that anytime someone strongly believes in it, it seems to me that they are condemning everyone that doesn't believe. i think it may be because of this Hell business which seems to me like a type of blackmail to get people to believe and want to save their souls, dont get me wrong i have nothing against Christianity but i never did get the hell aspect...punishment is great but shouldn't the best punishment be to have to live again and not get to be with that great force....being part of it or just being with it.

[Nightwolf04]

Ok Nova impress me then :)

then I might change my view yet again

[GoingNova]

I didn't mean "some force" i mean THE Force (like life stream but not....), God is just the way you perceive it and all the other religions give that Force a different face and another way to see it. there is something about the Christian faith that anytime someone strongly believes in it, it seems to me that they are condemning everyone that doesn't believe. i think it may be because of this Hell business which seems to me like a type of blackmail to get people to believe and want to save their souls, dont get me wrong i have nothing against Christianity but i never did get the hell aspect...punishment is great but shouldn't the best punishment be to have to live again and not get to be with that great force....being part of it or just being with it.

I have had this disagreement in another forum. It was not on religion, but argument was the same. In answer to Christians thinking they are "condemning" everyone else, I would have to disagree. Your "Firebrand" Christians might, but your everyday Christians don't. I believe in Hell. I believe in the Bible. I believe that God has rules, and if you don't follow them, GOD MAY PUT YOU IN HELL. Not me, not a minister or a priest, but GOD. God makes that decision, not me. It is not my place to judge anyone, period. That is the TRUE CHRISTIAN WAY. Jesus Himself said quite plainly, "Let he without sin cast the first stone.", meaning, unless you are perfect, which no one is, do not judge others.

All of that being said, because I think my religion is right, and the other religions are wrong, does not make me judgemental. This is not directed at you at all, but I think part of the problem today is people are afraid to stand up for what they believe. They see people doing things they know are wrong, and are too afraid of being labeled "judgemental". Now, you read what I just wrote, it is not my place to judge, but that does not mean I can not say that when two people practice S&M, there is something wrong with them. :laughing3 If you want to argue that point, start another thread. My point is, I am not being judgemental when I point out something that is obviously wrong. I am not being judgemental because I believe the religion I follow is the "correct" one. The only harm is when a religion says, I am the right religion, and then starts chopping off people's heads. Other than that, I believe you are free to practice any religion you choose, but if you ask me, mine is the right one. ;)

I hope all of that came out right.

[GoingNova]

Ok Nova impress me then :) then I might change my view yet again

First of all, NEW MEMBERS, I AM FAR FROM A BIBLE THUMPER! HECK, I MISS GOING TO CHURCH MORE THAN I GO! I was just asked some religious questions, and answered them to the best of my ability.

Anyway, a very quick google search on Jesus produced the following, which was cut and pasted.

Historical evidence concerning Jesus. There are a number of ancient historians, writers, and educators whom we could introduce regarding the historic reality of a man named Jesus, the founder of the movement that bears his name, Christianity. These individuals are highly recognized as being reputable and reliable in their various writings and are extensively quoted even by agnostic and even atheistic learned people today.

Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born in either 37 or 38 A. D. When he was 26 years old, he took upon himself the mission of seeking to improve the relations between the Jews and the Romans. He was a historian who was highly respected by the Roman world. He was held in such high regard that he was allowed to accompany Titus when Titus led the Romans Army against Jerusalem (70 A. D.). Josephus wrote several books that have come down to us today, History of the Jewish War (seven different books) and Jewish Antiquities, to name some. Josephus was not a Christian himself. We read:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure….And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

In all fairness, many among scholars today are claiming that the above just quoted was not originally written by Josephus but is an interpolation. However, the passage is present in every copy of which we have knowledge, just as quoted. The above passage was twice quoted by Eusebius as early as 315 A. D. Another passage in which Josephus mentions the historic Jesus is found in Antiquities, Book 20, Chapter 9, and Section 1. This second reference has received comparatively little rejection. After exhaustive research, it could very well be that very early on, a copyist dressed up Josephus' first statement in an attempt to make it more favorable to Jesus. The passage is found in the context of references to sedition, before and after the passage. The above quotation does make reference to, "the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time." This is probably, no doubt, part of the pure text, if the text were doctored. However, even if we allow for the early changing of the text, most would have to agree that Josephus does historically allude to Jesus.

Carius Cornelius Tacitus (many of his writings were about 100 A. D.). Tacitus was a Roman historian who reportedly hated Christians. In writing about the life of Nero and the accusation that he burned the city of Rome and blamed it on the Christians, Tacitus says:

"…Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate….At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. Their executions were so contrived as to expose them to derision and contempt. Some were covered with the skins of wild beasts, and torn to pieces by dogs; some were crucified; others having been daubed over with combustible materials, were set up as lights in the night time, and thus burned to death…" (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

Notice that while Tacitus had no regard for the Christians of whom he wrote, he does mention Christ as being the founder of their belief.

Suetonius (Roman historian, born about 88 A. D.). While Suetonius does not mention Christ by name, he does refer to Christianity. This reference and many more that could be supplied proves the early origin of Christianity and details that are congruous with the biblical account. Hear his brief statement in also writing about the life of Nero whose reign began in 54 and ended in 68 A. D.:

"Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief" (Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, pg. 197).

Pliny the younger, born in 61 A. D. Pliny was sent by the Emperor Trajan to Bithynia in 112 as propraetor. Having found a large number of Christians there, he wrote back to Trajan to get information on how to deal with them. Pliny says to Trajan:

"It is my rule, Sire, to refer to you in matters where I am uncertain. For who can better direct my hesitation or instruct my ignorance? I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed…." Under specific item number five of his letter, Pliny wrote: "…All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence, with incense and wine, to your image which I had ordered to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statutes of the deities; and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which, it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do…."

Under item number six, he continued:

"…Others named by the informer first said that they were Christians and then denied it; declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some having recanted three years or more before and one or two as long as twenty years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods and cursed Christ…."

Concerned reader, as seen in the foregoing, there is no doubt that Christianity had its beginning in the First Century and that Jesus Christ is its founder. In addition to the secular writings quoted above, why should the twenty-six books of the New Testament be discounted as establishing the historicity of Jesus? "Jesus" or "Christ" is mentioned specifically in twenty-six of the books. Third John, "Jesus" and "Christ" absent) does imply Jesus (vs. 7). These books cover a critical time period of about 56 through 96 A. D. and involve ten different authors. The matter most valuable about these twenty-six books is that they have been subjected to more tests to determine authenticity than any other books (canonicity).

In closing, a man named Jesus Christ really and actually lived. This is established from secular history. He is presented as the founder of the movement that bears his name, Christianity. The Bible does more, however, than simply present the historicity of a man named Jesus (click on, "Jesus, His Identity (http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR102.htm)" to read more). I shall conclude this study by inserting the conversation between Jesus, his disciples, and especially the statements of the apostle Peter:

"13: When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14: And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16).

That was from a quick Google search. I will try to do a better one later. Now, I am off to get ready for work! ;)

[Nightwolf04]

Lol very good Nova and impressive too for the quick search. So jesus might be real...but theres still the might...really because even with all of this there still if no real proof otherwise there wouldn't be people saying there isn't :)

[Sicander]

Ok I dont know how many times Im gonna have to say this to get it to sink in! I never said you could not believe what you want you are free to do that. I dissmiss other religions as that is part of my religion!!!!! I have nothing agains any of you!! When did christians get this unescapable stigma that we force our beliefs on people. I have told you what I belive, take it with a grain of salt if you want. And also If you read my previous posts you will notice that I said many times you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without Christ, He doesnt come in different forms, He was flesh and blood, Jesus of Nazereth. He was God but he was also man! That is the basic concept of why pagans and other religions who do not acknoledge Jesus, even thought they know of Him, that is why they don't make it to heaven. Again if you choose to not belive that it is your choice. PLEASE dont make me repeat this again. I have said it many many times now! (If I do it to much more the mods are going to get mad for spamming. lol)

[GoingNova]

Nightwolf, I am going to have dig deeper. You really are the first person I have ever known that doubted that Jesus lived. :D

Ok, here I go, "In Search Of..."

[GoingNova]

I have found some more links:

Link 1 (http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Culture/1563.htm)

Link 2 (http://www.creatingfutures.net/seekers.html#BOOKS)

I get a lot of questions about my faith, and to a "non-believer" who is logical, I often offer this little bit. Again, this would be the most BASE level of belief. Perhaps this might be the first step toward looking into believing.

If you look at the life a Christian is "supposed" to live, and if you lived this sort of life, would it make you a better person? Yes, or no. If you answered yes, next question, would being a Christian go against anything you believe morally? If you answered no, next step. If you live your life as a Christian, would it be so bad? And finally, now you die.

You are a Christian, and you die. You were right, you met God, and you live eternity in Heaven. You are wrong, was living a life as a Christian really that bad? OK, you are an atheist, and you were right: was anything you did in your life so RADICALLY different that what you would have done had you been a Christian? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but, you were right, and there is no God, so, who cares. But what if you are wrong? What if, when you die you stand before a God you never believed existed. What do you do? What will He do?

I don't know. Some people believe you will go to hell, others believe that through the mercy of God, you will be forgiven. I don't know. I don't pretend to know. All I do know is, I don't want to be in that situation. :laughing3

Is this the best reason to believe? Far from it. But I already believe. I think this is something a "non-believer" should ponder. :D

[Sicander]

Read a book called mere christianity by C.S. Lewis, it is quite possily the best description of christian belifes ever put together and it wil answer some very tough questions very logically. A very short essay was written on it and I will link you too it.

http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/trilemma.htm

Mere Christianity covers very logically every delema we have discussed here. He Covers the claims of Jesus divinity, he covers why "living a good life" isnt enough, he covers why a good God could create such a bad world, he covers why science isnt the antitheasis to God, and explains why bad people go to hell. Its all there laid out VERY well. Its a short book, in book terms, and an easy read. If you won't read though the Bible READ THIS. If nothing else you will understand your christian neigbors ALOT more!

[Damm]

When did christians get this unescapable stigma that we force our beliefs on people.

I think it was sometimes around the crusades...:p

In anycase, thanks for all the links! I think there are SOME christians out there that give most a bad name...just as I know plenty of believers of islam that are horrified by recent world events done in the name of their religion...but that's an extreme example.

You guys are ok, I don't think you are too pushy at all...you have both provided very interesting information and Sicander is obviously someone who enjoys a good debate.

[Firefly557]

Nightwolf the question that you aer really searching for i think is whether Jesus was the som of God not whether he exists because there is reference to him in Judaism (however its spelt) and i think maybe in Muslim texts but i'm not quite sure. the belief that seperates Judaism from Christianity is that Jesus was the son of god (i know thishas already been said but i felt like reinforcing it) which i the real question i think you are trying to ask because there is proof that he really did exist.

[Nightwolf04]

Kath I already know this and guys please stop I know this is a debate and everything but I feel like you two are trying to force me into going into Christianity I know you might think your not but that's how it feels. I don't want to be preached to.

but anyway I have a question...why can't we sin if God is going to forgive his childredn anyway???

[GoingNova]

Kath I already know this and guys please stop I know this is a debate and everything but I feel like you two are trying to force me into going into Christianity I know you might think your not but that's how it feels. I don't want to be preached to.

but anyway I have a question...why can't we sin if God is going to forgive his childredn anyway???

hehehe, we are not trying to convince you to join Christianity (we don't get referral points :eusa_ange), we are just explaining what we know about our religion.

In regards to your question, answered quite simply, do you do things that make your parents upset, just because you know they are going to forgive you? A relative or a close friend will most likely forgive you if you do something wrong, do you do it because you know they will forgive you?

When we sin, we hurt God, and ourselves don't forget. Most (not all) of the things that are considered sins have serious consequences. It hurts God to see his children doing things that are potentially damaging to them.

[Nightwolf04]

Fankoo that always confused me to be honest :)

And ok sorry but it seemed like you were :)

[dont argue with this guy]

hehehe, we are not trying to convince you to join Christianity (we don't get referral points :eusa_ange), we are just explaining what we know about our religion.

In regards to your question, answered quite simply, do you do things that make your parents upset, just because you know they are going to forgive you? A relative or a close friend will most likely forgive you if you do something wrong, do you do it because you know they will forgive you?

When we sin, we hurt God, and ourselves don't forget. Most (not all) of the things that are considered sins have serious consequences. It hurts God to see his children doing things that are potentially damaging to them.

good point, that aspect is more clear to me now.

[Djeuve]

That was a lot to catch up to after being gone for a week. Interesting how the converstations unfolded, though...

Nevertheless, I still feel full of questions I can't seem to put to words at the moment...

:bunny:

[dont argue with this guy]

we need to find some jewish people and get their perspective on things.

[Damm]

Jaws is Jewish, unless he just observes passover for the hell of it. :eusa_thin

[Djeuve]

What about Buddhists??

[Firefly557]

just quickly before we move off the christianity thing what i dont get is how people cant get christianity (i mean there are somethings i dont get but i get most of it) i mean the base of their belief is that the son of god came and cleared them from their sins (i know thats a little over simplified but hey work with me here) i dont get how people can argue whether he exists or not there is corroborating evidence that he did and the fact that he was son of god is debatable and a leap of faith by christians but what really annoys me is that people who are atheist (in england this is) as far as i know have to say that they are CofE because atheism isn't an option on those type of forms which annoys me slightly actually i have no clue what my point is so i'm just gonna stop now...

[dont argue with this guy]

Jaws is Jewish, unless he just observes passover for the hell of it. :eusa_thin

oh yeah forget i said that lol

[Whind Soull]

Hello!
This is my first post... I've been browsing this thread, and thought I should throw my 2 cents in. First, let me say that I am a Christian. It always upsets me when I hear other Christians (or people of other religions) say that all atheists are stupid or evil. In all honesty, I can understand your opinions. The idea of a higher entity is hard to fathom. The idea of a Satan is hard to fathom, as well. When I look at the world, and see all of the pain and suffering; all of the people that kill in the name of the Lord, I wonder why a loving God would let it all happen. The answer that I've come to is that it is all based on free will.
Jim Caviezel (who played Jesus in "The Passion of the Christ") was talking to the (now late) Pope about Democracy. I don't remember his exact words, but he said something along the lines of, "Isn't Democracy only a good thing if you have a moral society? If you have an immoral society, doesn't Democracy, and thus freedom, just give people the power to do ill?" The Pope responded, "Democracy is not the power to do what you want. Democracy is the power to do what you aught."
Freewill follows the same path. God could remove all pain and suffering from the world, but by doing this he would take away freewill. To enter the gates of heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior, do your true and honest best to follow his teachings, and ask for forgiveness when you stray. I know that you have been hearing "Jesus loves you!" your whole lives, but it really is true. God wants you to follow him.For faith, or being saved, or heaven, or hell to have any meaning, there must be two things... The first is choice. God want you to follow him, but it has to be your choice. It's hard to explain why, but it just does. God could force you into it, but then what has he created? For there to be choice, there must be more than one option. If you are forced into a fighting for a cause, are you really following it? You're only truly following it if you chose to follow it. Why does evil exist? Because it's the other option. It's the other choice. As you see, I'm not trying to prove the existence of God. I will admit, I don't think it can be done. God does not exist as part of the four dimensions that we know so well; he exists within them, but not as part of them. Even if I could prove beyond any doubt that there is a God... I wouldn't. Faith is "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof." (Webster) The second thing is doubt. There must be doubt for there to be choice. If we could prove all that the Bible says, would anyone not be a Christian? No one would chose to lose their place in heaven. No one who believes all that the Bible says isn't a Christian. It would be foolish not to be. "If Christianity is true, than it is the single most important thing ever. However, if it isn't true, it is completely and totally worthless." I don't remember who said that, but it's true. By taking away doubt, you take away choice; and by taking away doubt and choice, you take away faith. Christianity would no longer be faith... It would be fact. It would have no meaning.
I'm only 16, and I don't pretend to know everything. I don't even say I can be sure that everything I just said is correct... but I have faith.

[Damm]

That was a most excellent first post Whind Soull. :)

I very much enjoyed reading it, and I'm glad that chose to contribute to the thread.

Personally, I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in any of the established religions in the world. However, I have much respect for all those who do have faith in one of the many established religions. The capacity for kindness is amazing in religion, but I find the capacity for abuse turns me away from most of them.

A couple of years ago, when I was going through a very rough time, a christian friend hid a note in one of my textbooks that said: "Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

I nearly cried, which seemed stupid to me, since I have and continue to tell this friend that I do not believe in God or the church as she knows them. But, I always remember how nice it was to read that note and for a brief second feel like there was some one that DID care about me...or two people, since my friend had obviously cared enough to leave the note.

In my youth I was a dedicated atheist, and thought that christians believed in God because they wanted to live under the delusion that there was life after death and that we didn't all just cease to exist. But the more people I meet and talk to in life, the more I understand the ideas behind religions and the capacity they have to bring kindness to the world...and I am always thankful when I meet someone who follows their religion in the 'good' way, instead of using it to justify acts of violence and hatred.

Which is why I really enjoy this particular thread on the forum.

I still don't believe in any of the world religions though :p

(I think this post is a bit all over the place, and I'm not sure what my point is...but it's 2am and I've spent all day writing an essay on the holocaust...so, forgive me.)

[GoingNova]

Whind Soull, :Welcome:, and what an excellent post! :eusa_clap Especially since it was your first! Thanks for joining the Bash, and welcome to our ever growing family!

[Nightwolf04]

Wow excellent first post :Welcome: that too hehe


After reading all of this I'm quite undecided. I'm not sure wether I believe what I used too or believe nothing at all.

It's always complicated when it comes to what you believe as you said about free will everyone seems to believe different things even if they follow the same religion.

*sigh* so many things to find out about and so little time :eusa_sile

[Whind Soull]

People ask me, "How do you know that what you believe is right?" As I said, I don't know. But think about... If Christianity is wrong, than yes; I have wasted my life. But if Christianity is right... then you've wasted eternity.
When I pray..I feel like someone is hearing me. As childish as that sounds, I really do. Yes, you can say that it's just my mind making it real. But think..people are more moved by faith in God then anything else. All those who have felt the Holy Spirit know... Those who don't believe in God, at least in my opinion, have never felt that. It's because they choose not to. Have you ever wondered why we exist? Why anything exists? There could just as easily have been nothing as something, could there not? I'm not talking about a empty void of space... I'm talking about an utter nothing. It's impossible to imagine. Every time you try, it's like a TV turning off, over and over in your mind. You try to imagine nothing, but everything you imagine it something. Then you try to imagine even less, but it's just the same thing over, and over. So why is anything here? Why is all of "this" here? Everything in nature seeks the simplist path. Water goes to the lowest point, and it take the most direct route to get there. If you lean a board against a tree, a squirrel will always run up the board, rather than take the tree at a right angle. Would not emptyness be easier than all of this? What possible reason does anything have for existing without there being a "Higher Power?" Why does the universe stop? Why does it have an edge? What's "holding it all in?" I believe that everything is evolving nonstop. That is a fact. But what I don't understand is: What caused the "spark?" To put it in the most simple terms... What caused dirt to suddenly become life? Evolution keeps it going, but what got it started? If you were to assemble atoms in the exact same way as they are in a tadpole... If you were to "create" a tadpole... Would it suddenly spring to life? Take its first breath? No. I don't think it would. It has no spark.
When the human body forms, why do we all tend to form in the same fashion? When I look at the skin on my arm, I think, "Why did it stop growing there? What told it to stop? Why do we grow taller as we grow older, but stay in the same proportions?" Fingers grow longer, but don't grow together. What about your eye? Think about how amazingly complexed your eye is. Look into someone else's eyes today. Watch the pupil contract. Looking at that, can you really, honestly say that that just "happened," with no divine hand in it? Right now, you are looking at words. The light from your screen is flooding into your eyes, being reflected off of the back of your eye, is being read by your brain, you understand the symbols you are looking at, and you understand what I'm telling you! I'm hundreds of miles away from you, yet I can so easily share with you my thoughts. Why do all trees, all over the world, look somewhat alike? Why did it all work out so perfectly?

Because someone had a hand in it.

[ski2bfree]

I think religious arrogance is what drives atheists to become atheist, not that God and the Devil are hard to fathom. I know it happened to me for awhile. You get sick of people asking you "What would Jesus do?" or