Is a fertilized embryo considered "Life"?

[MrsD]

Do you think that a fertilized egg or embryo is considered to be human life? When DOES life begin? Post your opinions and take the poll....

[MrsD]

I, for one believe that life begins at conception. The embryo has its' own uniqueness already, and is ALIVE. I think (and hope) that anyone who has held a newborn in their arms, counted ten little fingers and ten little toes would feel the same way. Any other opinions?

[GoingNova]

Hard to say, but I guess one could say, better safe than sorry?

[M@Broz]

Hmm.. well i kind of go with the belief that, when it takes its first breath... its alive.

Kind of the same question: is a fertilized Chicken egg alive, or is it only alive when the chick comes out?

[MrsD]

Aside from the fact that I know you're a man, you obviously have never been pregnant or seen an ultrasound (especially the newer ones). That's a little person in there - alive, moving, feeling and thinking.

[GoingNova]

Kind of the same question: is a fertilized Chicken egg alive, or is it only alive when the chick comes out?
Not to sound like a wise ass here, :smiley_aa but, it's a chicken, who cares! :laughing3

[MrsD]

The chicken's MOMMY!!!!;)

[M@Broz]

Haha. Ooh MrsD. :nopity:

[jaws]

See, ,I'm really torn on this issue. I have to weigh it both as a ethical person, and then on the other side of things, I have to look at it from the point of view of a scientist....it's so much more confusing!

[MrsD]

Understandable and honest. I truly appreciate that. I'm coming from that standpoint of a woman who loves babies and children (until they get to about 14...:eek: ). I have a couple of very dear friends who cannot conceive in as hard as they've tried and with the aid of technology. I think of innocent lives being wasted, for whatever reason and think of what great parents these people would make. It's senseless. I'm not coming from a religious standpoint, but one of MY morals and beliefs. I'm probably getting off into another topic...

[Angry White Man]

A fertilized egg is a HUMAN BEING that is X seconds old! Period! The moment the egg becomes fertilized, it is no longer an egg, the sperm is no longer the sperm, the two have come together to form a human being. The notion that after a month, two months, three months, nine months, whatever, this "fetus" becomes human, is just a smoke screen to try and erase the guilt of killing an unwanted child. Abortion is wrong 100% of the time because the baby is 100% innocent of anything. That being said, there are times when abortions are within reason - in the case of rape for instance. The fact remains, even in rape, the child that did nothing is killed because the mother (understandably so) can not deal with the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy. Personally, I think it is between the woman and God. When the woman who has had an abortion dies, she will have to answer to God for what she did. I am not God, and I will not judge a woman who has an abortion.

[M@Broz]

wow... you have.. uh.. quite a conservative outlook on abortions. I respect that, i mean people have their own opinions. But what about mistakes or juvenile decisions when a the woman becomes pregnant? Isn't it her right to do what she feels is right with her own body?

and i dont believe it says in the bible that having an abortion is a sin... Maybe the belief of killing another human is a sin.. but its up to your own interpretation whether you think that its a person or not, its up to you if you want to play god, i agree. However, I dont think its a person YET... the definition of being a human being or person implies that they have their own personality, and have control over their own bodily functions. Which a fetus does not have. The brain isn't actually fully functioning until before birth, for most of pregnancy.. they dont even have one. And babies personalities don't evolve until birth.

I agree with you partially that at some point in incubation that the fetus actually becomes a baby.. I think that after a certain point that having an abortion would be actually killing a baby... but there is a time when i believe that it isn't killing a baby. But thats just me.

But times are changing, and we do have a choice now. Some people will want the choice, and some people wont. Its all up to the persons own beliefs...

[Angry White Man]

M, nice retort. I would venture to say though, it is better to er on the side of caution: is it really easy to say exactly when it becomes "a baby"? If you leave it alone, and not bother it, it becomes a baby, so that is good enough to me.

In closing however, I think this is best left up to you and God. When you die, let God decide. In the meantime however, I think abortions should be allowed only in the first six weeks, and that's it.

[greyscale42]

First off I agree that we shouldnt judge people who have had abortions.
however

At conception the embryo has a completely seperate set of DNA from that of its mother. Therefore it is NOT PART OF THE MOTHER!!!!!

A child shouldnt have to pay for its parents mistakes.

I could see abortion being understandable in two circumstances. In the case of rape or if the mother would die as a result of giving birth to the child. Even in the case of rape I dont think its right; just understandable.

[Nightwolf04]

I'm torn on this too, readin all the edvidence everyone has put forward and everything I would say that as soon as the egg is conceived it is living and therefore is not fair to kill that life, no matter what time period you do it in....(except possibly for situations of rape and when the child is very very very ill, if it's only got a slight disability then that doesn't count).

cannot be bothered to say anymoretoday I'm not in a very argumentitive mood...

p.s and what mrsd is wrong with 14 year olds ;)

[Rascal]

i gotta side wiht most people here i think. the egg will become a human if left to develop, there's no way to argue against that. is the fertilized egg itself life? i'd hedge my bets towards yes, but i'm not entirely sure. i know that after 9 months it develops into something that is most definately alive.

[smo1704]

While I agree with Angry White Man, in that an embryo is alive at the moment of conception, the same is true for the billions of cells composing the human body, and none of them are granted similar rights. I would not consider an embryo to be a human with all associated rights until its nervous system is fully functional. Beyond that point there is the capacity for thought, however limited by lack of experience.

[Sicander]

I take the philosophical approch that it WILL be alive and that I have no right to deny that life. I think that the instant that the first chemical reaction happens it is alive and human. What I hate about this issue is so many of its supporters are fine with abortion but if I wanna go out hunting its wrong. You cant have it both ways. If killing a bear is wrong than abortion is wrong. Even if you dont think its human it IS alive. There is life there. So you want to call it a fetus. Well I say it should be illeagal to kill a fetus. The funny thing is think of it this way. If back in the day when they first thought of celebrating birthdays. If they desided to celebrate the day of conception rather than the day of birth were would we be now. I think that is we had started out celebrating on the day of conseption that abortion would not even be a whisper of a thought on the minds of the populous.

[monsieurjohn]

i tend to draw the line early too - it can be considered life at the moment of conception. i heard an interesting distinction that i hadn't heard before recently though, to consider it life when the cells differentiate and the first sign of a spinal cord appears - it's within a week i think.

[icpfreaker05]

I believe that once the pregnancy test says positive, it's a baby. Whether it makes it or it fails. That is my personal opinion...

[ski2bfree]

Aside from the fact that I know you're a man, you obviously have never been pregnant or seen an ultrasound (especially the newer ones). That's a little person in there - alive, moving, feeling and thinking.
Not really. I know it may look like it in the ultrasound, but the fetus isn't really alive by the conventional definition of life. The medical community defines life as a persistent conscious state, which is why "beating-heart cadavers" are so important as organ donors. These are cadavers whose hearts are still beating but they are brain-dead for whatever reason (I read all about this in the book "Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers"). The fetus doesn't even begin forming neuronal cells until about 2 weeks after conception, and those cells don't even differentiate to form the brain until another week after that. Even then, it's just the brain beginning to form. It doesn't have clearly defined cortical regions or anything like that. Just a mass of neural tissue. It's not conscious, it's not thinking, and it's not feeling. The brain is even still continuing to form after birth by a process of synaptic pruning.

I think there's a bit of a gray area in this debate. I would be willing to consider a fetus as alive after the first trimester, but definitely not before then.

[GoingNova]

NIt's not conscious, it's not thinking, and it's not feeling. The brain is even still continuing to form after birth by a process of synaptic pruning.

It has it's own unique DNA, and if left alone, will grow into a human. It is a human being at X days of development.

[smo1704]

It has it's own unique DNA, and if left alone, will grow into a human. It is a human being at X days of development.

A seed, left to it's own devices in the proper medium, would become a tree, but that does not make a seed a tree.

[Lil Bit]

I don't know how many of you have ever been pregnant or had a baby(not too many considering some of you are men or have not had children yet), but have you ever felt the movement of a baby in utero? It's really awesome to see and feel it even if you are just holding your hand over the stomach of a pregnant woman. You can feel it turn, kick, hiccup, stretch and sometimes you can feel it's own heartbeat from your own. And to see a live birth especially one of your own child is the absolute most amazing thing to ever see. I have seen 3 births(my nephew and my God children) and been through 3 births(my babies) and even though I was only helping the other 3 times it was still very emotional and wonderful. It's kinda messy and it's not easy, but when that little person comes into the world there are no words to say that can express the feeling of the euphoria of a new life being given. Birth is the most beautiful and precious thing that we are given the chance to experience. No one will ever be able to tell me that an embryo is not a living being and that it does not function as we do. I felt all three of my children alive in me and if given the chance I would do it all over again. I have been on both sides of the abortion battle and I regret every milli second of the time I had been on the prochoice side. Since then I have never bashed a persons decision to do what they think at the time is the right thing, I have been there for people to talk to and help get through something that like me took the hard road to realization. If there is anything ever in my life that I regret it would be that. People have to realize that you cannot make a true judgement on something like this until you have the be one that has to make a decision that could mean the difference between life and death. There is a point in everyone's life where you have to question yourself, just don't be so quick to make up your mind.

[GoingNova]

If you don't think a fetus is a baby, go watch a sonogram.

Abortion, no matter what the circumstances, is the ending of an innocent life. You can call the baby a "fetus", you can try to justify it however you want, it remains the same: a mother, a father, both or just one, deciding that for whatever reason, they do not want to deal with the birth of a child, and so, they decide to end the child's life. A six month old "fetus" is a six month old baby. A two week old "fetus", is a two week old baby. A day old "fetus", is, a day old baby. No matter how you slice it, it is a baby, and it is innocent of any crime.

So, should we throw stones at people who have abortions? No. Could I understand why a 16 year old pregnant teenager, with no one in this world, would choose to have an abortion? Yes. I could. Could I understand how a woman who was raped decided to have an abortion? Yes, of course I could. But, and this is just one of those annoying things in life that, well, just sucks... the fact still remains, that even in those circumstances, an innocent child is being killed. Nothing anyone says can ever change that fact. You call it a fetus; I call it a baby, the fact still remains, if you leave that "fetus" alone, it becomes a baby. There is no magic that changes a "fetus" into a baby... it is a natural progression. A fetus is a human being before birth. Plain and simple.

So, a woman has an abortion, for whatever the reason. Now what? Well, my view is, we all do things in life we regret. We all make mistakes. Should I rot and burn in hell because, heaven forbid, I get drunk and kill someone while driving? So long as I have remorse, so long as I accept responsibility for my actions, and admit I was wrong, no, I don't think so. What I resent is the notion that an abortion is simply not wrong. The notion that it is a matter of choice, like picking a bed spread: a matter of preference. That is what upsets me most. It is so often said, that I as a man, have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. That is a very nice smoke screen: a very clever way of chastising me for stating the truth. When you have an abortion, you are killing an innocent human being. How can you on one hand say that someone does not have the right tell another person what do with her body, but then on the other hand say that someone has the right to terminate the life of another completley innocent person?

Innocent human beings die. It is a fact of life. “Collateral Damage” in a war is the killing of innocents. Is it wrong? Of course it is, but sometimes wrongs are done. Such is the case with abortion. Again, my biggest objection is the removal of any guilt whatsoever. At least admit you are killing an innocent. From that point you can make progress, and perhaps prevent it from happening again. Make abortion illegal? Can't be done. Not today. Impossible. I think the best way to go about it is to allow the choice, but try to convince as many people as possible to CHOOSE NOT to have an abortion. To respect the right of a baby to be born. Babies, after all, truly are innocent.

[Pyxidragon]

IMHO, a baby is a baby, born or not. I've had one, and lost 4 since. And it hurts just as much to lose a living child (from what I've seen) as to lose the preterm ones.

A pregnant woman who is threatened or attacked will immediately move to protect the child she is carrying...even if it's only a few weeks along. Were it just a "bunch of cells" as someone mentioned earlier, I don't believe there would be such an emotional attachment.

A friend of mine who spent about 10 years working in the maternity ward of a hospital told me once that a child has fingers, toes, and a brain about six weeks after conception.

When she was working there, procedure was to show women who wanted to get abortions their ultrasound and make them wait 24 hours before they went through with the procedure. Oddly, more than three-quarters of them decided not to go through with it after seeing those pictures.


Lest anyone have the wrong idea, I'm not against a woman having an abortion. Should it be endangering her life, then certainly it should be done. If there are other reasons, then there are other options that I feel would be preferable, but it's ultimately up to the mother of the unborn child.

[Lil Bit]

Maybe they should have the video shown at all abortion clinics. I mean for someone who has never done it I think it would be a good eye opener. It's easy when you do the "counseling" to say you do not have any questions or reservations about doing it, maybe it would benefit to have the people view it to make a more suitable decision for themselves.

[Sicander]

On the issue of abortion where it threatens the life of the mother. I think choosing who lives and dies in that position is a little to godlike of us. But regardless, most mothers I have met would have gradly died in labor so that the child could live. My own mother almost did.

[GoingNova]

The "woman's life is in danger" abortion is so rare, I would actually like someone to find a case where this was the situation. Also, in the case of late term abortions, the woman is practically giving birth, how can her life be in danger? < (http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html)<<link to diagram of partial birth abortion>>> (http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html) She is having the baby up to it's head, the doctor is then making a hole in the baby's head, and sucking out the brains. He then pulls the dead baby out. HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THE BIRTH WOULD HAVE KILLED THE MOTHER IN THIS SITUATION!
(http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html)
Also, the Health vs Life argument: the reason the pro abortion people want HEALTH in there is because it allows for a woman to have an abortion all the way up to the time of natural labor (yes, that means 8.5 - 9 months), simply because she is "depressed". Depression is a health issue, and yes, doctors HAVE MURDERED 9 MONTH OLD BABIES IN THE WOMB BECAUSE THE MOTHER WAS DEPRESSED OVER IT! WHY DON'T YOU EVER HEAR ABOUT THIS ON 60 MINUTES, or BARBARA WALTERS!

Ok, stopping now. Another hot button issue for me. Sorry.

[Sicander]

The whole depression thing seems contrived to me. If your sad, find out why and deal with it, don't pop pills and blame society. cough cough Brook Shields cough. I think its all an excuse to blame problems in your life on chemicals and not yourself! People don't just get depressed. 'scientists' say that its a chemical imbalance but so far to my knowledge that has yet to be prooven. I say if your depressed, eat some pudding, go see a movie and get over it. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and admit your own mistakes and move on. Also a healthy relationship with the big guy upstairs doesn't hurt either.

[Lil Bit]

The whole depression thing seems contrived to me. If your sad, find out why and deal with it, don't pop pills and blame society. cough cough Brook Shields cough.

OK Tom, Think about it this way, would you rather someone else take care of a woman's baby or herself? Would you rather the woman freak out and hurt or kill her baby? I think realizing you have a problem and dealing with it and possibly using medication is no problem.

I think its all an excuse to blame problems in your life on chemicals and not yourself! People don't just get depressed. 'scientists' say that its a chemical imbalance but so far to my knowledge that has yet to be prooven.

How about I tell you exactly what I have been through in my life so that you could honestly tell me those things were my fault. It has been proven that chemical imbalances can cause depression, my mother is a manic depresive and when her chemicals are out of whack she goes manic. She will spend ungodly amounts of money on crap, or she will start rearanging the intire house and keep doing it until she is so exhausted she can't stand up, she has tried to commit suicide countless times. When she is on the medication and her chemicals are balanced she is so much better. She can get out of bed, we can have a conversation that doesn't feel like I am talking to a wall, she eats, and she is generally happy. So how about the next time she goes for her work up I can show you the proof of chemical imbalance?



I say if your depressed, eat some pudding, go see a movie and get over it. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and admit your own mistakes and move on. Also a healthy relationship with the big guy upstairs doesn't hurt either.

Your solution is for people to get fat and lazy? That doesn't sound like a very sufficiant answer to me. I have come to terms with anything I have ever done wrong and I have moved past it and made my amends with whomever I needed to. The only thing that gets me down is the countless nights I wake up because I had a dream about things that used to happen to me, or when my husband can look at me at tell me I am a lazy no-good stuck-up bitch. I don't think I will ever "get over" the things that happened to me when I was younger and you know what? I don't think I should have to, even though it still tears me down every so often it has made me somewhat of a stronger person and I think it has helped to be able to raise my girls. I do not feel sorry for myself, I never have and I never will. As far as I am concerned when I moved out of my parents house I made a really huge bed and if I screw up all I can do is to make it back up and jump back in and hope it stays nice and neat. I do take an antidepressant, I am not addicted to it. I have had less nights waking up with those terrible dream and I am able to function better in daily life. I do not take them everyday, I take them when I think I need it. I don't rely on it to make me feel better, but when I do take it and I am depressed I notice that I can tolerate myself and the goings on around me better. My "drug" does not make me loopy or flighty, it does not dope me up, and the best part, it's legal. Honestly if I was allowed to I would rather spark up a joint to calm myself, but it's illegal and you aren't supposed to do it so I don't out of respect for my family and the law. I have a relationship with God I love him and do my best to obey him. I pray everyday for may kids, my mom, people I work with, strangers I come across, I even ask to keep everyone here at BA safe. You know what else would make me feel better? If we could get every child rapist and pedophile and kiddie porn addict all together and chain them all to the concret floor inside a huge building made of cow dung and burn the damn thing to the ground and send em all to hell. Maybe it would halp me sleep better at night to know that none of those *******s would ever get their paws on one of my daughters, but until then I think I will stick with my "drugs", they cost less than a shrink too.

[Lil Bit]

OK back on topic now. I have seen the diagrams on the partial birth abortion and it sickens me to no end. I was told be 7 doctors that I would never have kids. I was also told that I would lose my babies. I also have three very healthy beautiful babies. I did everything I could to keep my babies alive while also keeping myself healthy. I did bed rest for months where I had 15 minutes of walking time a day, I did horrible diets to keep my gestational diabetes from getting worse and harming us both, I gave myself insulin shots after the diet stopped being effective, I took drugs that happened to have steriods so that my uterus would not deliver my baby 5 months prematurly. I dealt with a bitch of a doctor to many nurses with crappy attitudes so that I could have my baby and live at the same time. I took iron pills that were so big I would choke just so I wouldn't bleed to death when I finally could have the baby, when I was 19 and having my first I was visiting my grandmother in WV and started bleeding and was put on bed rest and drugs to keep her in there. They told me about the options of abortion and I told them they were nuts if they thought I was going to kill a part of myself. They said my body just wasn't accepting the baby and it would be better to get rid of it, I told them it was too damn bad and there was no way I could do that. I dealt with a lot to have my kids and I am sorry, but I would do it all again if I had to. It was all worth it. There have been women who deal with cancer have their babies before getting treated. Women all over the world go through hard time while pregnant and I don't see where any one person is more special than the next to have to choose abortion.

On another note there are people that at some point in their lives they make a bad decision and they have to live with that. Sometimes to be young and stupid can teach you the lesson of a lifetime. I already learned that one.

[Nightwolf04]

That was an awesome answer before msutang (the one above your last post).

I've never been 'medically depressed'. I've never had to take pills. Thankfully, I hope I never have too, in my past I've been rejected and had people die...well who doesn't so I've tried as much as possible but like as msutang said, why should I have too. I do not want to sit on a couch and watch some sa dpathetic movies and fill myself with ice-cream because it jsut doesn't make you feel betetr, it makes you feel worse. The only way I know to make yourself reletivly less depressed, it's to get out into the world and do something. To do something that'll make you feel better about yourself what ever that happens to be...

Mustang if I'm involved in your prayers I have to thank you for them :). I don't have a God unlike some of you on here, but I know thier is something wtaching over us, just I do not wish to name it until I know exactly what that is. I don't pray everyday, I jsut sometimes wake up in the morning and thank whoever that I am alive and that I am happy, and I hope that everyone else can be as well.

Back to the thread though. I think it's unbelievable of what some mothers put themselves through, an exmaple being msutang. If a woman can do that for her baby then why is it so god damn hard for a woman who has the basic nesscessities to keep her baby? She really should have thought about it before she went and had sex if she knew there was a way she could have got pregnant.

I do understand people my age getting pregnant either!?!?! I mean how the hell does that work, your always told millions of times constantly to wear protection...I asked a girl a few months ago how she'd managed to get herself pregnant without wanting too, she replied 'I was afraid to ask about using a comdom' Geez....IF you can't talk about proection then you aren't ready for sex with that person, or anyone for that matter.

Sorry went of on one their, feeling alittle bit all over the place today

[Lil Bit]

My sister knew a girl who first got pregnant at 13! She never got an abortiion and has like 6 kids now, but that is too young. I am glad she kept her kids though.

[Nightwolf04]

Way too young, you haevn't even grown up yourself yet.

I'm thankfully to myself that I am never going to have kids, I know I won't discover the wonder that is children, but I'm jsut one of those people that doesn't see the need. I don't want to haev children, If I ever do I hope I am like 35, so I can have a life of my own...but it's very doubtful I will.

[jatkins]

Here are some interesting statistics.

1) Half of yearly pregnancies in the United States are unintended.

2) Half of yearly unintended pregnancies in the United States end in abortion.

3) In the United States, roughly 93% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy (that is, women who are sexually active, able to become pregnant, and who are neither pregnant nor seeking to become pregnant) use contraceptives.

4) 47% of all unintended pregnancies occur among the 7% of at risk women who do not use contraceptives.

5) Roughly eight out of ten of all teen pregnancies are unintended.

6) The rate of teen pregancy has fallen considerably over the past fifteen years.

7) While the proportion of teenage women having sex has fallen slightly, the difference is so small that it can only account for a tiny proportion of the overall decline in teen pregnancy.

8) Use of birth control can reliably be attributed to well over 75% of the overall decline: contraceptive education correlated nicely with a significant and observable decrease in the percentage of sexually active young women becoming pregnant.

I can provide more statistics upon request, but I should probably get to a point here. The most reliable and effective way to both reduce the number of legal abortions being performed in the United States and avoid the scourge of "back alley" illegal abortions is to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies. Every relevant statistic indicates that contraceptive education is many times more effective at achieving this goal than abstinence-only. Moreover, no statistical data is available to warrant the claim that contraceptive education increases sexual activity among teenagers, or even that it fails to decrease it as much as abstinence-only. The moral of all of this is that providing contraceptive education to kids prevents abortions. And that's something that everyone, both pro-choice and pro-life, can agree is a good thing.

[Lil Bit]

And statistics like these are why I will talk to my kids about it. It is my responsibility to make sure they know this stuff.

[GoingNova]

The moral of all of this is that providing contraceptive education to kids prevents abortions. And that's something that everyone, both pro-choice and pro-life, can agree is a good thing.


I agree, but with certain reservations. First and formost, I think abstinence should be hammered home as the only sure fire way to NOT get pregnant. I think this should be coupled with "scare tactics", that is, show young people other young people who have children, and let them see for themselves how hard it is to be a parent. Then have them speak to women who have had abortions, and now carry all the emotional baggage. After all is said and done, educate them about birth control, but again, hammer home that birth control is by no means a sure fire prevention of pregnancy. I do not advocate handing out birth control, or making it readily available to youth. I see that has encouraging it.

Finally, I think this should only be taught to high school age children, as I don't believe it appropriate for children prior to high school being taught anything more than basic sex education. I also think fear is the best weapon, because I don't think your average high school kid has the maturity to really comprehend the consequences. Hell, I know a lot of adult males who still don't get it! :eusa_ange

[F*ckin nutcase]

yes I believe its alive a fetus has a heart beat from the 21st day following conception and moves around after 30/40days of course its alive

Does it think?Is it aware of itself?No I dont think so...From personal experience (4babies)
the "its alive! living in me!" feeling comes when the fetus starts kicking and is felt by the mother not really before well maybe during an ultrasound scan I guess

[Sicander]

OK, we are talking about different sorts of depression here! I'm talking about the people who feel down once and a while and think drugs are the answer. A serious case where massive chemical imbalances exist do happen. The intresting thing is, I have read a few medical journals and seen a documentary that said that a new way they are dealing with problems of repetitive behavior, hording behavior and things of that nature is not with drugs but with specialized therapists who know how to work with those sorts of minds. You get people who will sit at a light switch and turn it on and off and on over and over because their brain will not let them believe it is off. They have found a way around it by doing things like rigging the lights to not come back on until a designated time. When the person simply cant perpetuate their problem after enough times studies have shown that the problem with significantly lessen if not completely dissapear. I think it was on discovery science channel or something. There are ways of dealing with these things without the use of drugs and whenever that sort of solution is possible I think it is best. I'm sure that this solution doesn't work for everyone but you have to admit we have become a drug culture. To many things are getting solved with perscriptions these days. And as we have seen with the excessive use of anti biotics, all it is accomplishing is an increased dependency and a reduced effectiveness.

The post labor depression thing is a little different. My mother went through that. She never took any drugs and she dealt with it just fine. She even lost 2 children and dealt with it without drugs. The anxiety and depression from labor spawns from an indescribably strong link between mother and child. Allot of mothers these days are forced to go back to work to soon after a pregnancy. There is a time where the mother simply must be with the child because that strong emotional link will tear them up inside if they are not. My mother described fits of extreme anxiety when she was not allowed near her childred at times. But with time it passed and she was able to let go. (Sort of she still wont let me go... God I have to get out of that house)

All I'm saying is we need to stop taking so many damn drugs. Hell, for all we know excessive drug use may be the CAUSE for these problems!

[Lil Bit]

In the first part of your post that sounds more like OCD. That's different from depression.

And I do agree that we are a drug culture. One thing I do not agree with is this ritalin wave. Out of all of the kids I have known that are on that drug, the only thing they really need is a kick in the ass. I can give that for free, I don't know whay all those parents didn't go for it. tehy use this excuse that they are ADHD or hyperactive. It's excuses like that which generate people like my husband. His mother still makes excuses for him. When he cheated on me, she actually had the nerve to tell me it all stemed from his ADHD. BULL****! Had she worried more about raising her kids right instead of how much money she got to spend on them and all her other stuff she thinks is going to accompany her in heaven then maybe he wouldn't be such an irresponsible ass all the time.

[Sicander]

In the first part of your post that sounds more like OCD. That's different from depression.

And I do agree that we are a drug culture. One thing I do not agree with is this ritalin wave. Out of all of the kids I have known that are on that drug, the only thing they really need is a kick in the ass. I can give that for free, I don't know whay all those parents didn't go for it. tehy use this excuse that they are ADHD or hyperactive. It's excuses like that which generate people like my husband. His mother still makes excuses for him. When he cheated on me, she actually had the nerve to tell me it all stemed from his ADHD. BULL****! Had she worried more about raising her kids right instead of how much money she got to spend on them and all her other stuff she thinks is going to accompany her in heaven then maybe he wouldn't be such an irresponsible ass all the time.

I know the whole ADHD thing is a freaking scam. My friend Mike was ADHD, he took ridilen every day and he was a nutcase, he did crappy in school and never listened to his teachers or parents. That is unlit about 12th grade, when it all changed... why? Well, he stopped taking the drugs. 12th grade he got almost strait A's and now hes an army engineer. Go figure, hes succesful and well balanced and he isnt taking any drugs. What changed? Well, he got a kick in the ass. His dad said shape the hell up or your out on your ass.

[Lil Bit]

My nephew is the same, he is on it and he is just spoiled rotten. I think my sister is too easy on him. She never spanked him and hardly ever repremands him.

Makes me sick sometimes.

OK all you wonderful people, I will see y'all Monday, I am taking tomorrow off so I won't be around. I have stuff to take care of. Amazing I have more time to be here when I am at work that not. lol

[greyscale42]

A seed, left to it's own devices in the proper medium, would become a tree, but that does not make a seed a tree.

But its still alive.

[greyscale42]

On the issue of abortion where it threatens the life of the mother. I think choosing who lives and dies in that position is a little to godlike of us. But regardless, most mothers I have met would have gradly died in labor so that the child could live. My own mother almost did.

I know plenty that wouldnt. Mainly because they are married AND have other children. If she died the family would be left without a mother. If the baby died it would go to heaven. Which sounds better to you.

[ANGLOIRISH]

I am only glad I would never have to be put into that situation. Difficult choice. When the mother wants the child but must make a choice between her life and that of her unborn baby.

On the other hand, having an abortion because you don't want the child is in my opinion murder. If you don't want the child then there are adoption agencies and millions of married couples longing to have a baby but are medically unable to do so. The baby deserves the right to live and to be place with people who will love him/her.

[Brainfreeze]

The whole depression thing seems contrived to me. If your sad, find out why and deal with it, don't pop pills and blame society. cough cough Brook Shields cough. I think its all an excuse to blame problems in your life on chemicals and not yourself! People don't just get depressed. 'scientists' say that its a chemical imbalance but so far to my knowledge that has yet to be prooven. I say if your depressed, eat some pudding, go see a movie and get over it. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and admit your own mistakes and move on. Also a healthy relationship with the big guy upstairs doesn't hurt either.

Sorry I have to hit this one, my wife has Borderline Personality Disorder http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borderline. html It most definatly is not a self induced issue that can be solved by any type of relationship with whatever deity of your choosing.

[ANGLOIRISH]

The whole depression thing seems contrived to me. If your sad, find out why and deal with it, don't pop pills and blame society. cough cough Brook Shields cough. I think its all an excuse to blame problems in your life on chemicals and not yourself! People don't just get depressed. 'scientists' say that its a chemical imbalance but so far to my knowledge that has yet to be prooven. I say if your depressed, eat some pudding, go see a movie and get over it. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and admit your own mistakes and move on. Also a healthy relationship with the big guy upstairs doesn't hurt either.

Definitely chemical in postpartum depression, Sicander. Check it out: http://www.womenshealth.gov/faq/postpartum.htm

[ski2bfree]

Adoption has been brought up throughout this thread, so I'm going to take the opportunity to discuss this option as an alternative to abortion.

Some adoption statistics throughout the 1990s:

Each year, about 120,000 adoptions occurred in the US.

Currently, there are about 500,000 children in foster care waiting to be adopted.

About half were related adoptions and half were unrelated.

About 15% of adoptions were made by public agencies.

5% of adoptions were international.

Between 2% and 4% of families in the US have an adopted child.

Adopting a child isn't cheap. To adopt a child from a public agency, which is usually preferrential toward special needs children, can cost up to $2,500. Private agencies can charge around $30,000. International adoptions can cost over $25,000, not including airfare for the 2+ trips the family needs to make before being considered for adoption. These costs aren't including attorney fees, application fees, INS fees for international adoptions, and some other undisclosed costs.

Roughly 20% of adoptions are disrupted, meaning after all the work done to try to adopt, the adoption is prevented before legalizing, resulting in the child returning to foster care.

About 2% of adoptions are faced with dissolution. This means that the adoptive parents are forced to give up the child, at which point the child is forced to return either to foster care or birth parents.

A large percentage of children who are looking for homes have been prenatally exposed to alcohol or drugs.
2.6 million infants each year are prenatally exposed to alcohol. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) affects between 1.3 and 2.2 children per 1,000 live births in North America each year. Cases of Alcohol Related Birth Defects (ARBD) outnumber cases of FAS by a ratio of 5 to 2. Each year, 11% of all newborns, or 459,690, are exposed to illicit drugs. More than 739,000 women each year use one or more illicit drugs during pregnancy. A substance exposed infant is born once every 90 seconds.
These children require EXTENSIVE medical attention that many adoptive parents can not afford and thus opt not to adopt in these cases.

Then, there are repeated cases of abuse by adoptive parents. For example, the couple in Ohio who collected children with special needs because of the federal funding they got from it. They kept the children in cages made of chicken wire. Now these children require psychiatrists, which aren't included in their federal funded special needs programs.

I don't know about you, but this sounds like a crappy system to me. After jumping through hoops for years looking for a child, the parents are still faced with the chance that the birth parents can come back and take the child. Not to mention the high probability of birth complications surfacing at a later age due to drug or alcohol abuse by the birth mother.

[ANGLOIRISH]

I was adopted. My birth records were sealed and my natural birth mother did not have any legal rights once the papers were signed.

I met my natural mother and she admitted to drinking throughout the entire pregnancy. Smoking as well. Fortunately I do not have any FAS features, however, I have been a nervous sort of person my entire life and I have an unnatural fear of being hemmed in, confined if you will. Why I don't know. Was it her drinking and not wanting the pregnancy but being catholic abortion was out of the question or was it being in and out of the orphanage for the first two years of my life and being confined to a crib by nuns who were too busy to spend quality time with each individual baby? I don't have the answers to that. But I do know life is too precious to scrape away with an abortion.

[GoingNova]

I don't know about you, but this sounds like a crappy system to me. After jumping through hoops for years looking for a child, the parents are still faced with the chance that the birth parents can come back and take the child. Not to mention the high probability of birth complications surfacing at a later age due to drug or alcohol abuse by the birth mother.

Very interesting facts Ski, thanks for presenting them. All of this known, and flawed as it may be, I still believe this system is better than simply killing all the unwanted babies.

[Chrisl0]

It's life but its not a person yet. It's like if you dumped bleach on bacteria would you really feel bad. But really I don't have a opinion on it.

[Nightshade200]

Me either for the most part, so I say leave it up to the individual. Life is life regardless. People don't take life very seriously unless the creature is "cute" or its another person. I think people should treat all life the same way. I don't see what makes human so goddamned special. In all honesty I would let a person die before I would let a dog die.

[GoingNova]

I don't see what makes human so goddamned special. In all honesty I would let a person die before I would let a dog die.

I am sorry to hear that, but in my opinion, that is very sad that you place such a low value on human life.

[Nightshade200]

Humans have the ability to commit horrible wrongs, animals do not. They live to live, not domineer everything.

[Chrisl0]

Humans have the ability to commit horrible wrongs, animals do not. They live to live, not domineer everything.

Humans are higher forms of life. So their lifes are more important than the life of a animal.

[GoingNova]

Humans have the ability to commit horrible wrongs, animals do not. They live to live, not domineer everything.

Are you serious? That would be because they can not think, and act only on instinct.

Dude, get off the "man is evil" kick, it is so old. Billions of people live on this earth, and you paint us all with the same brush. Mankind has done and will do many wonderful things, and I am proud to be a human being. If you hate mankind so much, go live with a pack of wolves, see how that works out.

[highlandronin26]

Humans have the ability to commit horrible wrongs, animals do not. They live to live, not domineer everything.

Nightshade do you have any thing to back up your theories?

[Chrisl0]

Humans have the ability to commit horrible wrongs, animals do not. They live to live, not domineer everything.

Also don't forget animals kill also.

[Nightshade200]

I don't paint everyone with the same brush. There are people I like. It's just easier to know that saving a dog won't come back to bite you in the ass. Keeping certain people alive is a gamble. People are evil. Well I can't say everyone is evil. Evil is often commited in the name of "good". I don't have to like other people. People take human life too seriously. You are right there are billions of people out there. One less person isn't gonna make a difference. Keeping people alive on a feeding tube pisses me off too. Its goddamn torture.

[Nightshade200]

Also don't forget animals kill also. You can't compare the nazi genocied to a pack of wolves eating rabbits.

[GoingNova]

People take human life too seriously. You are right there are billions of people out there. One less person isn't gonna make a difference. Keeping people alive on a feeding tube pisses me off too. Its goddamn torture.

It is people with attitudes like this that cause so much of the "evil" you say man does. Thank God most people put a very high value on all human life.

[GoingNova]

You can't compare the nazi genocied to a pack of wolves eating rabbits.

You realize you are comparing humans to animals right? I mean, you do realize that, right?

[ski2bfree]

That would be because they can not think, and act only on instinct.

Actually, animals can think. There's very little that distinguishes the physiology of a sheep's brain and a human's brain. The main difference is that humans have an enlarged frontal cortex (the area in which consciousness is thought to be centered) and greater surface area of the cortex. They still contain the same emotional centers (hippocampus, amygdala, thalamus, etc.) and basic cortical regions. In fact, birds have an amazing capacity to generate new neuronal cells cyclically, replacing old neuronal cells in the beginning of each mating season. Dr. Nottebohm at Rockefeller University has studied this extensively and has shown it to correlate with learning patterns in birds, including everything from mapping to learning songs. Anything that can learn clearly demonstrates a capacity to think.

[Chrisl0]

You can't compare the nazi genocied to a pack of wolves eating rabbits.
Maybe so, but they aren't any better. Plus they don't have the brain capacity to do something like that.

[ANGLOIRISH]

Are you serious? That would be because they can not think, and act only on instinct.
"Our organ of thought may be superior, and we may play it better, but is surely vain to believe that other possessors of similar instruments leave them quite untouched."
--A Response By Donald Griffin, Ph.D.
Check it out, Nova :http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19991101-000036.html

[Chrisl0]

A embryo is life, but it isn't really a human yet.