Poetry: Form vs. Substance

[possum37]

I was helping a student print out a paper yesterday in which she had written a poem about trees...the way it came out was like:

o
ooo
ooooo
o
ooo
ooooo
o

and so on. She changed printers and the page margins shifted slightly, and th epoem ended up on 2 pages. She asked me if it was ok looking like that, and I asked her, "Well, it depends, is the visual layout of your poem important or not?" She kinda looked at me blankly, and I said again, "Is it important to YOU, as the poet, to keep your poem looking as it does?" She said "Well yeah, whatever," and blew it off...

Sometimes when I do poetry I am very aware of the way the poem will look on paper or on screen, and I create my poem to be visual art as well as written/spoken art. Am I crazy? Is form as valid a consideration as substance?

EDIT: I know I'm confusing some people so I'm trying to find some instances online of what I'm talking about...

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My knob tastes funny.

[Beaker]

I totally agree. Nothing ticks me off more than to read an old poem, like Donne or Milton, think I understand it, and THEN find an authoritative volume of the same poetry.... with correct punctuation. Punctuations can completely change the meaning of the poem, just one comma, thats it! The crew at random house need to learn this.

Beaker

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My social security number makes me unique.

http://www.popflux.com

[Diesel]

As an artist, it's entirely up to you how your art appears.
However, when dealing with poetry, it's my opinion that content is more important that visual appeal.
Poetry is usually read or spoken, so the message is more important that the actual layout of the letters on a page.

Your friend gives a perfect example of this: on paper they're just letters, and it doesn't matter how they're arranged as long as the message stays intact.
Once it reaches the brain, THAT'S where it becomes art.

If you can add visual appeal to the art of the message, then that's a bonus, but visual appeal should be secondary to the words.


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spidergoolash: "heh, a cup of diesel dan - mwahhha"
me: "heh, a cup of me is like a cup of heaven!"

[jourgenson]

I have a friend who is a poet who is always asking my opinions of his poems, but alas I am not very good at poetry criticism. I would say that at least with his stuff and ome of the other poetry I have read, form is quite important. There is sort of a divide between the modern poets who tend to underplay form as opposed to poetry from back in the day http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif for which form is more important.

with Poss's tree poem example I can imagine a poem where the lines look something like:

ooo
ooooo
ooo
o
o
ooo

^[edit-supposed to look like tree but failed]

well you get the idea. and maybe it is important to the author that it looks like a tree. My friend will show me something that has an elaborate deep meaning due to the combination of words and form.

Mainly, it's up to the writer. what would e e cumming s be with punctuation?

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my eyes, the goggles do nothing

[mthrlangl]

I gotta go with that it's up to the writer. I forget who it is, but one of the older poets wrote one called "Easter Wings," and when you looked at it (and turned it sideways), it looked like wings. Poetry *is* an art form - sometimes it's meant to be read aloud, and sometimes it's made to be read. ::shrug:: I don't think I could ever make a picture from my stuff, but I've got some respect for people who can..just like people who can rhyme.

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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year. ~ Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here)

[mthrlangl]

Oh, dear. DD has a very good point. I never thought about it that way, but it's true. When you go through an art museum or poetry book or whatever, the artist is most very likely not there leaning over your shoulder telling you that "I meant this by placing that word there."

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I never wanted anything, the way I wanted you that night. My love transcended space and time. I never wanted anything, the way I wanted you. - Bif Naked

[whattwin]

DD and Mthrl (? how *do* you like to be addressed?)you hit the nail on the head...ever read "Gaze of Orpheus" by Maurice Blanchot? I would swear you both have - you did a very tidy job of summarizing 200+ pages...http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol.gif...empirically, anything is nothing until it is used, and the user brings its definition...

Did I say that? Who am I and what did I do with myself...http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol.gif...

[mthrlangl]

Actually, I was just trying to translate DD's statment into my own words http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif He's the smart one in this case http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

And you can call me mth, mthrlangl, mthrl, Lacy..whatever http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

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I never wanted anything, the way I wanted you that night. My love transcended space and time. I never wanted anything, the way I wanted you. - Bif Naked

[whattwin]

I have to say - the form of a poem may change the substance if done correctly...it may emphasize or play down any aspect of the poem that the writer prefers it to...Although, it is ultimately the reader's view and interpretation of the work that will decide what, exactly the form does to the substance...I prefer to set off short 1-2 word statements for emphasis, yet the reader may be more attracted to the longer statements as a personal preference, thereby discrediting what I, the writer was trying to achieve...

How's that for confusing? http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/lol.gif

[Diesel]

How's this for confusing...
http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you, as the artist, do. Because once your art leaves your hands, it's not really yours anymore. It now belongs to the person reading/viewing/listening to it. Once they start interpreting it with their own views, it's no longer what you made it.



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spidergoolash: "heh, a cup of diesel dan - mwahhha"
me: "heh, a cup of me is like a cup of heaven!"

[Diesel]

whatwin> Actually, I haven't read that. I'm just full of all kinds of useless knowledge.
http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif


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spidergoolash: "heh, a cup of diesel dan - mwahhha"
me: "heh, a cup of me is like a cup of heaven!"

[whattwin]

DD> Never fear - someday - one of those useless bits of knowledge will snatch you the grand prize on "Millionaire" - I just know it!

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So I say to the Dalai Llama...How about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know?" And he says, "...On your death bed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that going for me, which is nice. -

[Diesel]

Ahhh, a Caddyshack fan... http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Yeah, I rock those trivia games. Jeopardy, Who Wants to be a Millionaire, Win Ben Stein's Money... I kick ass on all of 'em when watching them at home.
As for winning me money, who knows...?

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spidergoolash: "heh, a cup of diesel dan - mwahhha"
me: "heh, a cup of me is like a cup of heaven!"

[liltaz]

When I used to write, I'd first write it just whatever way, but when I made myself a final copy, I made sure the form was as good on the eyes as the words...

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"The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too."

- Samuel Butler