Homosexuality

[Attrox]

Homosexuality is a serious issue in today's society, especially among teenagers. Many people and religions are opposed to it, and in whole I think it is safe to say that a majority of people are opposed to homosexuals. Personally, I don't care if somebody is gay or not.

My best friend is bisexual, and I've known him since I was six years old. He is still the same person he always was, but just has different sexual preference then me. I don't mind it, as long as I am not exposed to any of it...

What do you think about homosexuals? Are you okay with it, or opposed to it, and why?

[BrianH]

Well not too much of a debate here. Personally I disagree with homosexuality. I don't mean to but I just can't get any further then just a small aquaitance with gays. (Lesbians I don't mind). But I try to avoid talking to them. I'm just naturally freaked out or scared of them. Such as I have a big phobia of snakes and I can't really change that.

[Kamikaze X]

Homosexuals are a disease and they shouldn't parade around like it's right. I'd be cool with one i f he was like "Jamar you're cool dawg I know I have a prob but don't discrimate playa" but they run around actin' like b!tches that's why I'd rather not be around them.

[Advance]

We just recently did a huge thing over at N-Philes arguing about this, and I don't feel like posting it all again.

I'm not opposed to homosexuals, but I am against homosexuality, if you can reconcile that. I'm against it in principle, but I don't condemn homosexuals for what they do because I see them as victims of a sort of disease or genetic defect. I hate them no more than I hate a person with Down Syndrome.

I'll quote some points that I made to help clarify, but some of them are out of context. Here's the entire thread if you want it. (http://forums.n-philes.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11232) It's a little rough though, so be warned.

Anyway, here's what I said:

If homosexuality is a "disease," it is of the genetic defect kind (which is an argument I find quite convincing). It's not something you "get". It's not akin AT ALL to a friggin' STD, that's for sure.

said that there is strong evidence to suggest that homosexuality can be linked to a genetic defect (particularly since they've found gay sheep or goats or something). I said it was LIKE Parkinson's and cancer, in the sense that it is a genetic defect. Perhaps it's more akin to Down Syndrome. There is a genetic, chemical imbalance that drives men (or lesbian women) to disobey their biological imperative and love other men. That wasn't a "bash" at all. It was a reasonable explanation.

If there's anything wrong here, it's that YOU took offense to having homosexuality likened to the problems that your grandparents are having. Maybe YOU need to introspect yourself.

Just for educational purposes, I thought I'd point out that 10% of the population is gay. That means there are more gays than there are Americans (given that some Americans are gay at the same time) or people who own computers, or even both put together (even if you count them seperately, though obviously there are gay American computer owners as well).

Actually, they were bisexual, and therein lies a FUNDAMENTAL difference. Bisexuality accepts both men and women; it's just an extreme openess or love for sex and pleasure. Homosexuality specifically denies women, and thus procreation, and is therefore "unnatural" as the argument goes. Bisexuality is a social construct, a norm or a deviance, as the case may be.

Are you listening? At all? To anything that's been said? Defect, social construct, any of this? There are two sides to the story: if you're "gay" and opposed to sex with women, then it might fall in line with the genetic defect side of things. In that case, they never liked women...ever.

If we're just talking about "homosexual experiences," then I guess all it might take is a lot of booze, a long period of sexual deprivation, a close male friend, and a slightly open mind. That doesn't make you gay though, if you're not attracted to men.

It all comes down to the attraction thing: men or women. If it's ONLY men, then there's a problem. If it's both, you're just indecisive. There's your damn answer.

See, it's this kind of bull**** hypocrisy that really pisses me off. Homosexuality denies the biological imperative to procreate. That makes it wrong. Regardless of how society changes, humans are animals just like dogs and cats. Changing society doesn't make homosexuality "okay"--it just makes it tolerable. Gays can't procreate. That makes it wrong in every biological sense of the word. So, until gays start popping out babies just like women, don't tell me it's right because the simple matter of the fact is, it's not. Bisexuality does not deny the biological imperative, and therefore, I can't argue against it in that sense. In truth, there is no argument against bisexuality at all, and if you look throughout the world today and throughout history, you'll probably find that bisexuality is more common than heterosexuality, just as polygamy (with a man having multiple wives) is more common than monogamy because it makes biological sense. **** sociology. Sociology is nothing. Social constructs mean nothing. All this "social norms" bull**** is just that--bull****.

Now, that's not to say that I'm opposed to homosexuals because I'm not. I can tolerate them as easily as I can tolerate the American way to monogamy. The fact is that, today, society can survive with gays just fine. In most ways, we've curbed nature and moved beyond it. I'm opposed to homosexuality because it makes no sense in principle. It has nothing to do with the sex (though it turns me off entirely) and everything to do with the denial of women. That is irrationality to the MILLIONTH degree.

Just because society can withstand for it doesn't make it okay; it makes it tolerable. That's what I do, I tolerate it and accept the people for who they are. Call me close-minded, call me "retarded," call me homophobic. I don't care what you think. I know what I am, and I'm none of those things. The only thing you have against me is that I think rationally.

That's enough for now, I think. :)

[Jethro]

First, I'd like to say that homosexuality isn't a preference. :grr: Who in their right mind would WANT to be gay? Secondly, homosexuality could be viewed as a genetic defect. I would take that side, since it is theorized by age two your sexual identity is known sub-conciously, although it isn't until your teen years that you become aware of this. For anyone who says its wrong, 'procreation' isn't what it's all about. This isn't about tolerance, it's about heterosexual self-ignorance and the fact that they think they are more 'superior'. And just so you know,25% of the American population is gay. Roughly, 2 out of 10 people are gay. In the average family, 2 to 3 members are gay.:gevious:

[Ice[DDZ]]

I can say the same thing as Attrox. My best friend is bisexual, I could give two ****s. As long as theres nothing sexual about the friendship.

Hating someone who is gay/lesbian/bisexual is just like hating an african american, or anyone different from you. Same concept, they couldn't help being what they are.

I've never seen people now-a-days going around forums starting topics about their not liking, or liking of people like hispanics, african americans and such. Most people have gotten over those days... Give it time and they'll get over this.

[Lord Lupus]

Personally, I couldn't care less, as long as their preferences aren't thrust in my face (bad analogy).

And "who would want to be gay"?
Those who find members of the same sex attractive, that's who.

[Jethro]

Just because they find the members of the same sex attractive, doesn't mean they want to be gay. It's not like they can change.

[Advance]

Originally posted by Jethro
For anyone who says its wrong, 'procreation' isn't what it's all about.

That's exactly what it's about. That's why it's a genetic defect.

Originally posted by Jethro
And just so you know,25% of the American population is gay. Roughly, 2 out of 10 people are gay. In the average family, 2 to 3 members are gay.:gevious:

Those are some of the worst made-up statistics I've ever heard. First, 1 in 10 people are gay. Second, 10% of the American population is gay. Third, if 2-3 members in the average family are gay (considering that the size of the average family is 4), that basically means two thirds of the world population is gay--see, now your made-up statistics don't even match.

Don't spout off lies, it's not becoming.

[Buster]

I'm aganist it, its wrong, its common sense, we weren;t created in a confusing way. I mean some of us have long pointed slender things and some of us have things that long pointed slender things can go in!!lol
GOOODNESS, God could'nt of made it more obivious.

The only reason I think the human mind turns homosexual is to prove him wrong. But in turn that causes hate and ridicule toward that homosexual mind. SO God is punishing those who are disobient and don't listen to him.

For freakin goodness people, most homosexuals are just being moronoic and the others who say, I was born like this, well their the ones with the diseased mind. IT IS a disease, we should classify it in a medical dictionary or something.

I can see it now. HOMOSEXUALITY, disease classlified as a change in the mind to be attaracted to the same sex.

Anyway those are my 2 cents.

[Jethro]

Advance, I'm assuming your gay since you know that. And when I said family, I didn't mean immediate family memebers, I was including Grandma and Grandpa, etc. I guess you can't understand the word 'Roughly', I was using as a 'more-or-less' term. Sorry for not clearifying that. Also, I didn't make those statistics up. I found them on the internet, whether or not they are true, isn't for me worry about. Personally I feel that if your not gay, you shouldn't say anything about homosexuality. Homosexuality could be viewed as a disease, however, heterosexuality is a disease as well - in the same respect.

[Advance]

Originally posted by Jethro
Advance, I'm assuming your gay since you know that. And when I said family, I didn't mean immediate family memebers, I was including Grandma and Grandpa, etc. I guess you can't understand the word 'Roughly', I was using as a 'more-or-less' term. Sorry for not clearifying that. Also, I didn't make those statistics up. I found them on the internet, whether or not they are true, isn't for me worry about. Personally I feel that if your not gay, you shouldn't say anything about homosexuality. Homosexuality could be viewed as a disease, however, heterosexuality is a disease as well - in the same respect.

Why would I have to be gay to know that? Haven't you ever done that "if the world was a village" thing, where there's one-hundred people? 10 of the people are gay. 10% of the population is gay. It's common knowledge.

It's not a disease; it's a defect. Heterosexuality is the proper gene, function, what have you. That's not a defect. It's correct. It leads to procreation. It's a basic instinct.

[Lord Lupus]

Originally posted by Jethro
Homosexuality could be viewed as a disease, however, heterosexuality is a disease as well - in the same respect.

So, the Human Race is now a disease?
Heterosexuality leads to the procreation of Humanity, Homosexuality doesn't.

And if it's not a choice Gays make, then it MUST be a disease - If they don't want it, they're inflicted with it.

[Sul...*]

Alot of people say that I am 'homophobic' I disagree. Since phobia mean affraid and I have no fear of any homos at all. I absolutly disagree with it all and wish them all dead.

Thats my personal view and as this is a gamers forum/site I will go no further.

[mb90078]

The only thing I wish people would do is leave an open mind, and try to see the person as a person, not as a gay...nor pass judgement as a group... I duno... Personally, I think it would be better if nobody was, but that's about as far as I go...

[Jethro]

First of all, Homosexuality is not a disease; it is not communicable, cause health problems, and is not curable. Second of all, it is not a genetic defect. Unlike other genetic problems that cause Parkinson’s or Down’s Syndrome, there has never been a gene found that will change a person’s sexuality. While they may report finding ones that are “linked” with sexuality, they have not done so conclusively, or at least well enough for the US Department of Health (Call them 1-877-696-6775).

Now, as far as what percentage of people are gay in the US, whatever number they decide to throw out there can never be fully supported. Regardless of what you think the reason is this: homosexuality may not have a genetic cause. If it does not have a genetic cause then the cause has to be social. If it is social, that means there is a higher percentage of people out there who are homosexual than will ever be counted.

As far as a lack of desire to procreate, what a crock of sh*t. I assume when you say gay you are making the assumption most people make and include only men in that label. Unfortunately the label also encompasses women as well. The desire for men and women to have children is, in no way, limited because of their homosexuality. What limits homosexual people in child rearing is the bigoted attitude the majority of straight people in the United States have toward a section of society that threatens whatever pseudo-Christian/Islamic religion they decide is theirs.

So here’s what happens, and you can look this up in case after case (here are three: Packard vs. Packard, 697 So. 2d 1292, 1293, Fla. 1st DCA 1997; Maradie vs. Maradie, 680 So. 2d 538, Fla. 1st DCA 1996; Jacoby vs. Jacoby Case 2D98-4790, Fla. 2nd DCA 2000) where women enter a marriage and produce children only to have them ripped away and given extremely stringent visitation when the marriage is annulled and the woman “comes out” as lesbian. Being homosexual does not, in any way, affect the desire to have and raise children. The same thing happens to men (Boswell vs. Boswell, Case C-94 16002 DV).

Those of you that are afraid of homosexual people are sickening. “Phobia”??? What the hell is that all about anyway? Are you afraid they are gonna burst out of you closet at home? If you are attractive enough to get hit on then you must work in the porn industry. Just so you know, according to the American Psychological Association (in Washington, DC, is the largest scientific and professional organization representing psychology in the United States and is the world's largest association of psychologists.)
“. . . homophobia [. . .] is the result of repressed homosexual urges that the person is either unaware of or denies (Adams, Henry. 'Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?' Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Vol. 105, No. 3, pp 440-445.” So, as a warning, if you are homophobic you are probably also gay as well. Have fun in your little closet.

‘Kamikaze’, you might want to watch what you say “homosexuals are a disease” because that is the first thing Hitler said about the Jewish people in Germany. He also edited his proclamation to include homosexuals. Where do you think the pink triangle came from? We all know how that turned out.

And ‘Advance’, male homosexuality has “. . . everything to do with the denial of women.”????? The only case this might be true in is sex, as a denial of female sex appeal, but you say that likes its evil and bad. Too bad most gay men will befriend more women in their lifetime than you will ever be able to. Maybe you haven’t noticed, the whole ‘sexual tension’ between heterosexual men and women is the cause of a lot of problems in society today. How many homosexual men have gone on sprees raping women to prove they are better and stronger? The whole division between races has been theorized to be caused by straight white men feeling threatened in their sexuality by every minority out there.

Maybe it’s time straight men actually grew some balls and realized they aren’t the center of the universe, most gay men couldn’t care less about them, and maybe the world would be better off without them anyway.

[Lord Lupus]

Jethro, honestly, are you gay? No, seriously.

Anyway... I've no problem at all with gay people, but as I said before, I'd rather they not prance about proclaiming their gayness. In your own words, most people don't care, and it's just to get attention.

And by your reckoning, if I did indeed dislike gays, then I'd be gay.
I dislike spiders- am I secretly a spider?
I dislike idiots- am I, with my 140 IQ, an idiot?
I dislike people in general- Am I secretly, in fact, a general?

... Okat, scratch that last one, But you see what I mean.
Plus, when I said disease (if indeed I said it, I can't reemmber) perhaps "affliction" would be a better word.

[Pedestrian]

people think that homo's have some sort of disease. why would somebody be scared of somebodythat fancies the same sex!?

Ok boys... you all enjoy watching those dirty lesbian movies wehre you seem to say oo its not bad cos girls are allowed to be gay.. err no..
all of you guys think oo he's gay so he is immediatley going to fancy me! Grow up right there!
Jsut cos he is gay and ur the same sex as he is doesn' mean he will jump on top of you.. if you feel uncomfortable that he 'might' fancy you tell him you aren't intreseted or say that you have a girlfriend...

I've been hit on by a couple of gay people.. not nice.. the things that come out of there mouth was freaking me out... you know the stuff you don't say to another man.. but hten you have ur close friends.. yeah you joke around with them and call him gay cos he touched you (ooo BONER!!... :|)

At the end of the day you guys are totally oblivious of who is gay or not... you could be standing next to somebody in a bus stop or sitting next to one on a train and you still woudn't notice.. BUT if you knew he was gay or you say a sign that he MIGHT be gay you would go stand at the back of the line or wouldn't sit next to him at all.. wouldsome of you boys have a real problem when sitting next to a Lesbian or not? if she was a carpet-muncher and she offered to give u a bj would you?

[Lord Lupus]

I don't use buses or trains, so those scenarios don't apply!
I wouldn't care, though. No, honestly.

[Attrox]

Ugh...Jethro, homosexuality isn't right. Yes, just because a person is gay doesn't mean you should hold it against them right away, they could be an awesome person.

But homosexuality is not right. That's just the way it is. I'm guessing you are gay, since you are trying to find a way to prove the majority of people wrong (and don't take that as an insult). But if homosexuality was right, people wouldn't have a problem with it. A majoirty of the population DOES think it is wrong, and a majority of the population IS straight. Why? Because that's the way it is supposed to be. If homosexuality was "right", then gays could have kids. But they can't, because it isn't meant to be. As for this post:
Originally posted by Jethro
Maybe it’s time straight men actually grew some balls and realized they aren’t the center of the universe, most gay men couldn’t care less about them, and maybe the world would be better off without them anyway.
Do you realize the level of stupidity you have placed in those comments? The world would be better off with out straight men? I'm just curious, with out straight men, how would the population regenerate? Are gays gonig to find some way to reproduce, or what? With out straight men, the human race would be doomed. Wake up and realize what you are saying. :grr:

[mb90078]

Originally posted by Attrox
Ugh...Jethro, homosexuality isn't right. Yes, just because a person is gay doesn't mean you should hold it against them right away, they could be an awesome person.

But homosexuality is not right. That's just the way it is. I'm guessing you are gay, since you are trying to find a way to prove the majority of people wrong (and don't take that as an insult). But if homosexuality was right, people wouldn't have a problem with it. A majoirty of the population DOES think it is wrong, and a majority of the population IS straight. Why? Because that's the way it is supposed to be. If homosexuality was "right", then gays could have kids. But they can't, because it isn't meant to be. As for this post:

Do you realize the level of stupidity you have placed in those comments? The world would be better off with out straight men? I'm just curious, with out straight men, how would the population regenerate? Are gays gonig to find some way to reproduce, or what? With out straight men, the human race would be doomed. Wake up and realize what you are saying. :grr:

weeelllllll....
Saying something is right or wrong is a moral, personal decision, things can be seen as right for some but not others.

A majority of people thought blacks weren't right....thought they should be enslaved, then even in recent history, should be put down below whites. I guess that's the way it's supposed to be. Also, though I guess I'm technically on "your side" of the debate even though I disagree with you, I often (though am not now) debate just to bring up a viewpoint that people don't see as common, even as a challange, especially if it's an issue on which I'd toss a coin to pick a side for.

[Attrox]

His post was totally anti-straight, and he made comments saying that straights are wrong, and need to be whiped off of the earth. Now if being homosexual is natural, then why is a small part of the population gay? Because it isn't natural, it isn't "right". That's what I meant by that.

[Jethro]

Originally posted by Attrox
Do you realize the level of stupidity you have placed in those comments? The world would be better off with out straight men? I'm just curious, with out straight men, how would the population regenerate? Are gays gonig to find some way to reproduce, or what? With out straight men, the human race would be doomed. Wake up and realize what you are saying. :grr:

It doesn't matter if I'm gay or not. Honestly, I'm not. I have no problem admitting this or defending homosexuals. They are just as equal as anyone else. I defend those who are gay since I have several gay friends and they have explained things to me in a way is clear and makes sense. The last post wasn't posted by me, it was a friend of mine who is gay.

On another note, Attrox, you said that a world without straight men there wouldn't be means of reproducing? All men have sperm. Including gay ones. So lets see, hmm... what would they do this? Oh, wait, I know... maybe give it to women so that they can have babies? This thought must not have come across your mind though.

[GINA]

what does it matter if someone is gay or not? who gives a damn what people do in the bedroom. i bet a lot more men are gay than you might think, but they're probably afraid to come out because of all the damn stereotypes you people have. homsexuals are not bad people. and what is it about lesbians that is so enticing? it seems like in our society, it's okay for some girl on girl action, but totally "gross" or "wrong" or "nasty" for men to do it. quit accusing people of being gay just because they have an opinion about gay people. just because someone may have more facts than you, or has a stronger opinion doesn't make them gay or bi.

[falsharm]

Run everyone, here comes the homo.

So you all know, I really didn’t want to get involved in this debate, but when my friend Jethro sent me the postings I couldn’t believe the level of ignorance and hate involved in these posts.

I will reiterate (sorry, big word. It means repeat what I said earlier). Homosexuality is not a disease and can never be treated as such. Neither is it an “affliction”, as some of you would be happy to believe. Apparently using that same thought blond hair could be considered an “affliction”.

For those of you who don’t want us gay people to “flaunt” our “gayness” at you I ask you this: Would you really recognize it as getting hit on anyway? Looking at your posting numbers it seems most of you sit in front of a computer all day as it is, that can’t bode well for your sex lives. Besides, research has shown electromagnetic radiation from a computer will actually destroy your little tadpoles if exposed long enough. I guess none of you are worried about that, though, except for Attrox who believes only straight men can produce sperm. Too bad he failed his sex education class.

Apparently Lord Lupus, with his 140 IQ, can’t read either. Perhaps he missed the part of the study’s statistic that says “probably”. I would be willing to bet he didn’t even bother to see if the journal was accurate in what was quoted. If he had he would have seen that 68% of the straight men in the study reacted to gay porn as much as they reacted to straight porn. It was the studies findings that reported homophobic men harbor their own homosexual tendencies. Perhaps you should argue with their logic instead of calling Jethro stupid.

Maybe you can all answer me this question: Is homosexuality more okay if it is lesbians? Are you worried about homosexuality because you are afraid of gay men? If you think homosexuality is a disease, where did you learn that? If you knew doctors had come up with therapy to cure people of stupidity would you go through with it?

Shouldn’t this be a world where people are allowed to follow their own dreams? Some of you really make me sick.

[GINA]

very well said falsharm :coolgrin: thank you for your input

[Pedestrian]

I bet that has stumped a few people.. :p

[Kazuki]

I've got nothing against gay people. I don't know any gay people so it wouldn't even be fair for me to judge them..

I don't really agree with two people of the same gender having sex though. Sure, watching a couple of lesbians having it off is great, but; it really isn't natural. It all narrows down to your personal preferences though really, if you're attracted to a particular gender, no-one can change that way you feel about them. You just have to accept the fact that every-one is different.

Oh and, falsharm. lol
Well said ;)

[ziroi]

If you throw religion into the picture, it really does change things. If you happened to be Christian for example, and 37% of the world is Christian, it's forbidden to be gay, because God did not create man and women to go "procreate" with other men and women. Although I haven't done the research, I'm willing to bet homosexuality is also a forbidden act in many other religions according to their scriptures. If 10% of the world is gay, there is a good possibility that those with religion, especially the ones forbiding homosexuality, are in fact gay themselves. If those that are gay are going against their own religion, it is morally and spiritually WRONG. You would be going against your own god, and you would be held accountable. (All these "you's aren't geared to any particular person by the way)

What am I trying to say? Persecution of homosexuals is technically not right. But, assuming some people went against their religion to fullfill their sexual desires, it would be wrong to be homosexual. Man or woman, it doesn't matter.

By the way, like some have already mentioned, homosexuality is not a disease, nor is it a genetic disorder. It is a choice of man or woman. If they want to be homosexual, it was their choice.

I hope I made sense. If not, well then drat it all.

(PS: I had no intention of making anyone mad or upset by my statements, including statements about religion and homosexuality. Just keeping the peace.)

[Attrox]

Well, not all people take religion seriously. Having sex before marriage isn't right in many religions either, but look, teens are doing it all of the time. It all depends on how seriously somebody takes their religion I guess.

[faint]

All I can say is: I have nothing against homosexuality

[faint]

Whoa if 43% of the world is christian, and 10% of the world is gay, that would be 4.3% of christians are homosexual... I think I got the math right

[AsH]

Homosexuality, geez.

It's not meant to be, but what will be, will be. That's my thoughts on it. I think everyone has their own tendencies and there's nothing you or I or they can do about it. Live and let live. You've got such a short time to enjoy yourself, get your kicks however you want.

But don't give me AIDs mother ****ers :delight: :rofl:

[Advance]

Originally posted by falsharm
I will reiterate (sorry, big word. It means repeat what I said earlier). Homosexuality is not a disease and can never be treated as such. Neither is it an “affliction”, as some of you would be happy to believe. Apparently using that same thought blond hair could be considered an “affliction”.

Why isn't a defect? And no, blonde hair has nothing to do with it at all. You're comparing apples and oranges. Blonde hair is a variation; it has no impact on the future of the species. If everyone had blonde hair, nothing would happen to humanity. If everyone were gay, humanity would go extinct. You can't pull all this "artificial insemination" crap. Your genes don't know about artificial insemination. You're born with natural instincts, and nothing more.

If homosexuality is a choice, why the **** would anyone choose it? You're condescended, marked as social outcasts, abused, criticized, restricted--life sucks. Therefore, it must be something more, something internal, something that you can't change--in fact, as several studies have shown (including a prominent one on sheep that proves it can't be a social construct)--homosexuality is linked to the genes.

Because homosexuality would cause extinction, it is therefore a genetic defect. Face it, the only reason you don't want to call it a defect is because you don't want to be labeled in the same boat as the mentally retarded. Who's being close minded now?

[mb90078]

Advance, why would anyone chose to be a punk or goth in certain areas where it's strongly looked down upon. They are still "condescended, marked as social outcasts, abused, criticized, restricted--life sucks". Yet their genes don't make them that...

[falsharm]

*SIGH

It is hard to reach people who really have absolutely no idea what is being said, or realize what they are saying. So, here we go, and to those that get pissed off, good. Hopefully it will make you actually think about what it is you are saying.

For those of you that have not done the research, I urge you to do it. Here is what you will find (according to Judaism and Christianity):

1. Homosexuality was never condemned within the original Bible. For those of you that hold the sanctimony of the Bible close to your hearts I am sorry. The Bible has been changed over many years with countless versions. The Torah, the Jewish scriptures, have a failsafe; if there is a mistake made the entire version is destroyed (just wanted to explain that so you all know how it retains its integrity).

Most people will quote about Sodom and Gomorrah but here’s what went on. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their entire failings. The Bible never specifies they performed homosexual behaviors. It said the crowd demanded the two angels be brought out so they might “know” them (King James Genesis 19.4-11). What is important to note is that the original word in the Torah is yadha which is only used 10 times in the Bible to refer to sexual acts, and all of those acts referred to are heterosexual. The Jewish word for homosexuality used in the Torah is shãkhabh. This is clearly a misinterpretation that has found its way into modern versions of the Bible. For example, the New International Version (NIV) says: “Bring them out so we can have sex with them (Gen 19:5 NIV).” When looking at Jewish translation this is obviously a misinterpretation.

So then the city’s crime was their pride as a city, and also their inhospitality: “Ezekiel 16:49 - 50, "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."

The Torah says homosexuality is only an unclean act, not any different than touching a woman who is menstruating and require the same ceremonies to cleanse oneself. Is touching a menstruating woman an unclean act?

Also, homosexual acts were the only thing considered unclean. This behavior never extended to the people themselves. Every time the Torah says “Don’t do this” it is because it doesn’t place the Jewish god as ultimate, i.e. the “sin of Onan” (masturbation) was condemned because it was done at the altar of Ba’al. By the way, all of you who have masturbated (ever) have committed a sin according to the Christian church.

Hmmm, a lot of you are probably wondering “If it’s not a disease or it’s not solely genetic, then it has to be a choice.” I would say to that: “Understanding that there are genes that can influence sexuality, but not cause it, there must be a social reason for going against the ‘norm’.” Social interactions and genetic predisposition both play roles in the homosexual’s identity. It is akin to the Native American genetic predisposition to alcoholism. But, while it is impossible to say all Native Americans are alcoholics, you can also not say none of them are. Homosexuality is never just a “choice”.

Ash, as far as the AIDS comment, maybe you should check the statistics. HIV/AIDS is not a “gay” disease. The fastest growing segment of the population with HIV/AIDS is black women. AIDS related illnesses kill more black men between the ages of 18-26 than anything else. These are statistics found on national HIV/AIDS websites, if you want to check. If you go look you will also see that 70% of the people with HIV/AIDS are heterosexual worldwide. I would be more worried about a heterosexual partner than a homosexual one right now. The odds are against you, not me.

Advance, I find it interesting that you seem to completely disregard the fact that homosexual people are just that, people. They have hopes and desires just like everyone else, and parenting is often one of them. You apparently not only consider homosexual people “unnatural”, but also “inhuman”. Be careful taking this approach as it is the same argument used to keep black people in slavery or to intern Jewish people during World War II. Also, the progenitor of this view was Saint Thomas Ignatius, of the Catholic Church. So you know, when he started writing this view it was a few centuries after the beginning of the Christian Era begins (I refuse to say Before Christ (B.C.) because it assumes Christianity is actually the beginning and ending of everything). He used improperly translates manuscripts, as I already pointed out earlier.

The other thing I would point out is that you say: “why the **** would anyone choose it? You're condescended, marked as social outcasts, abused, criticized, restricted--life sucks. Therefore, it must be something more. . .” I agree, but I also want you to realize that is isn’t gay people that make life hard for gay people, it is straight people who make life hard for gay people. Look at this posting board and tell me that it isn’t the straight people wishing I was dead, or that I was going to give them AIDS, or that I can’t possibly want to, mush less actually, procreate or want kids. Just so you know, you are the one that makes my life hard, not me.

I want to apologize to everyone reading this forum for the long posts I have been sending. Unfortunately being the only one trying to fully address the “other” side of the status quo means I have to respond to a lot more posts. I really appreciate those people who understand that gay people are actually just regular people who want to live their own lives. Thank you, really. For the rest of you, I only hope you are thinking a little more about other people, and not just spouting off the rhetoric you have learned from various people that amounts to nothing but hate. I would challenge you to think about what you are going to say, would you say it about someone who it physically different to you, or even mentally different, or culturally different? Think about it.


PS: Hey Jethro, how was the movie?

[Lord Lupus]

Originally posted by falsharm
Look at this posting board and tell me that it isn’t the straight people wishing I was dead...

Okay, I don't wish you dead.

But prove to me that Homosexuality isn't a genetic error.

[AsH]

Originally posted by falsharm
It said the crowd demanded the two angels be brought out so they might “know” them (King James Genesis 19.4-11). What is important to note is that the original word in the Torah is yadha which is only used 10 times in the Bible to refer to sexual acts, and all of those acts referred to are heterosexual. The Jewish word for homosexuality used in the Torah is shãkhabh. This is clearly a misinterpretation that has found its way into modern versions of the Bible. For example, the New International Version (NIV) says: “Bring them out so we can have sex with them (Gen 19:5 NIV).” When looking at Jewish translation this is obviously a misinterpretation.

Way to take it out of context. Do you forget the next part? He then offered them his daughters and they refused, saying they still wanted the men. I don't think you can really refute what was meant by it.


So then the city’s crime was their pride as a city, and also their inhospitality: “Ezekiel 16:49 - 50, "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."

Again, what do you think that means? Homosexual acts? Yeah...

The Torah says homosexuality is only an unclean act, not any different than touching a woman who is menstruating and require the same ceremonies to cleanse oneself. Is touching a menstruating woman an unclean act?

For holy purposes, sure. :P :)

Also, homosexual acts were the only thing considered unclean. This behavior never extended to the people themselves. Every time the Torah says “Don’t do this” it is because it doesn’t place the Jewish god as ultimate, i.e. the “sin of Onan” (masturbation) was condemned because it was done at the altar of Ba’al. By the way, all of you who have masturbated (ever) have committed a sin according to the Christian church.

Or because the sin is against their God's nature and will for his chosen people?

Ash, as far as the AIDS comment, maybe you should check the statistics. HIV/AIDS is not a “gay” disease. The fastest growing segment of the population with HIV/AIDS is black women. AIDS related illnesses kill more black men between the ages of 18-26 than anything else. These are statistics found on national HIV/AIDS websites, if you want to check. If you go look you will also see that 70% of the people with HIV/AIDS are heterosexual worldwide. I would be more worried about a heterosexual partner than a homosexual one right now. The odds are against you, not me.

What does AIDs in homosexuals have to do with race? And where are you getting your statistics? Every report I've seen shows that the majority of people per capita with AIDs are homosexual. Wouldn't it stand to reason though, numerically, that heteros would have more HIV infected persons than homosexuals, due to the vast differences in their numbers?

Besides, you're 10 times more likely to contract HIV anally than vaginally, simply because of the ease it takes to tear the rectal walls and cause bleeding.

Advance, I find it interesting that you seem to completely disregard the fact that homosexual people are just that, people. They have hopes and desires just like everyone else, and parenting is often one of them. You apparently not only consider homosexual people “unnatural”, but also “inhuman”. Be careful taking this approach as it is the same argument used to keep black people in slavery or to intern Jewish people during World War II. Also, the progenitor of this view was Saint Thomas Ignatius, of the Catholic Church. So you know, when he started writing this view it was a few centuries after the beginning of the Christian Era begins (I refuse to say Before Christ (B.C.) because it assumes Christianity is actually the beginning and ending of everything). He used improperly translates manuscripts, as I already pointed out earlier.

Who's disregarded it? I have many gay friends, not to mention my bosses are both gay. I love 'em both. My AIDs comment was a joke.

And I disagree with your "improper translations." I would like some references, if you could.

[Buster]

why would people be homo sexual, GIRLS ARE MUCH HOTTER THAN GUYS COME ON!!!!

I just don't get it, maybe homosexuals are just people who want to be different and like to be ridculed. Maybe if people didn;t care that they were gay, if they didn;t get made fun of maybe they would realize that there not getting attention so they would stop being gay.

Or maybe Gays just think to much into their lives, and they just think their gay.

I don;t know if its me or my reilgion but God and the bible both say homosexuality is wrong and God is all knowing and our creator so if he would of wanted some of us to be gay he wouldn't of let there be so much hate toward homosexuals.

I mean I say its wrong and I will not go making fun of gay people or hate them, their still people and God's children but they have just misunderstood a cruical part of their life.

Lastly I would like to say, Gay guys your missing alot, Girls these days have got it GOING ON if ever you wanted to come back to our side, you would really not regret it.

And all the lesbians out there, We the guys have got something the girls just don;t have, "and thats all I got to say about that."

[falsharm]

Lord Lupus, with all due respect, prove to me it is a genetic disorder.

Ash, maybe it is time you actually got out of your little shell and learned about how the world really works. Especially about how the world worked back then. First, you must get away from the premise that the Christian god is the ultimate end-all and be-all of everything. Christianity has bastardized not just Judaism, but other religions as well. The Judaic god was never omniscient, or omnipotent, or omni- anything. It is the Christians, while inflating their importance in the world, who started teaching this.

Also, as far as Bible verses go, we could sit for days bantering back and forth using Bible verses to counter each other’s arguments. Even Jesus himself warned against Satan using the Bible to justify his position, but think of this, which one of us is Satan?

K, so as far as the Sodom and Gomorrah story goes, yes they did demand the angels, but nowhere did it say they wanted them for sexual acts. By the way, if you want proof of how the Bible has been mistranslated all you need to do is go talk to your local rabbi. Unfortunately there is no way to explain to you without you knowing Hebrew.

So when committing abominations, do you really consider homosexual acts the only abomination? Even considering this was pre-10 Commandments what exactly made up abominations? I refuse to believe homosexual acts could be considered the only abomination. As established before, homosexual acts were considered unclean because they did not help establish the society. All of the laws in the Torah were established with the ultimate goal of building a large society.

Touching a menstruating woman was considered unclean at any time, not just during holy ceremonies, by the way. As was eating pork. I wonder how many Christians today realize they are still bound, technically, to the laws of the Torah? Remember Jesus himself said he wasn’t coming to replace the Law, but to fulfill it.

I love to see you second-guessing the Christian god when you talk about his “will for his chosen people.” It’s so nice to see people who are so in touch with their god that they can put words in his mouth. By the way, whenever you refer to the Christian god you are supposed to capitalize the references out of respect. I don’t because I don’t believe the Christian figment of imagination is any stronger or more deserving than any other religion’s.

Here’s some HIV/AIDS statistics and where they come from:
Women are becoming increasingly affected by HIV. Approximately 50%, or 19.2 million, of the 38.6 million adults living with HIV or AIDS worldwide are women. http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#cumaids

An estimated 5 million new HIV infections occurred worldwide during 2002; that is, about 14,000 infections each day. More than 95 percent of these new infections occurred in developing countries. http://www.unaids.org/worldaidsday/2002/press/Epiupdate.html
(That’s almost 10 every minute)
As of December 31, 2001, 467,910 deaths among people with AIDS had been reported to the CDC. AIDS is now the fifth leading cause of death in the United States among people aged 25 to 44, and is the leading cause of death for black men in this age group. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/nvsr50_15.pdf

Here’s another interesting fact sheet if you want to learn more about what is actually happening about HIV/AIDS: http://www.who.int/emc-hiv/fact_sheets/pdfs/usa_en.pdf

HIV/AIDS is not a “gay” man’s disease. It was labeled that in the United States way back when, but the numbers don’t justify this position when looking at a world picture.

Unfortunately I can only tell you what I know to be facts, and then show you where those facts are supported by credible research. It is up to you to follow through and check out the research, but it would also be helpful (and lend a lot of credibility to you arguments) if you would cite where you get your statistics and information.

[Jethro]

For heterosexual who seems to think that homosexuality is a choice, tell me, when did you CHOOSE to be a "straight"? How did you come to make this choice?

For everyone else who thinks it genetic or a social influence that causes homosexuality...what does it matter? It doesn't. Queers are here to stay and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

Falsharm, I agree with every word you say. Btw, the movie was great!

[Attrox]

Originally posted by Jethro
For heterosexual who seems to think that homosexuality is a choice, tell me, when did you CHOOSE to be a "straight"? How did you come to make this choice?
I didn't make this choice, I was born this way. It's natural.

[falsharm]

I say the same thing. I didn't make this choice, I was born this way. It's natural.

Quite frankly, none of you are enough of an expert or present well-articulated arguments to make me think otherwise. Nothing against you personally, I hope you understand that.

[Lord Lupus]

Originally posted by falsharm
I say the same thing. I didn't make this choice, I was born this way. It's natural.

Quite frankly, none of you are enough of an expert or present well-articulated arguments to make me think otherwise.

So, you're saying it IS a genetic disposition?
And since I know next-to-nothing about you (I assume you're gay, however), you ARE enough of an expert on genetics, brain chemestry, and all that other stuff you need to know about to say, without a shadow of a doubt, that it IS a naturally-occuring occurance?

If you were, you'd be proving me right anyway, by saying it's a genetic thing, and since the entire point of sex is procreation, and same-sex sex does not lead to procreation, it's an error.

[Buster]

falsharm stop acting like your the freakin smartest person in the world, ok I mean no one even needed to know that were not good enough to make you change your mind.

Unless you gay you don't know how Gay people feel, why they feel gay, when they felt this way and overall if it is natural or if its a choice they made, so with all do respect for your arugmentive skills, SHUT IT!

[AsH]

Originally posted by falsharm
Ash, maybe it is time you actually got out of your little shell and learned about how the world really works. Especially about how the world worked back then. First, you must get away from the premise that the Christian god is the ultimate end-all and be-all of everything. Christianity has bastardized not just Judaism, but other religions as well. The Judaic god was never omniscient, or omnipotent, or omni- anything. It is the Christians, while inflating their importance in the world, who started teaching this.

Also, as far as Bible verses go, we could sit for days bantering back and forth using Bible verses to counter each other’s arguments. Even Jesus himself warned against Satan using the Bible to justify his position, but think of this, which one of us is Satan?

K, so as far as the Sodom and Gomorrah story goes, yes they did demand the angels, but nowhere did it say they wanted them for sexual acts. By the way, if you want proof of how the Bible has been mistranslated all you need to do is go talk to your local rabbi. Unfortunately there is no way to explain to you without you knowing Hebrew.

So when committing abominations, do you really consider homosexual acts the only abomination? Even considering this was pre-10 Commandments what exactly made up abominations? I refuse to believe homosexual acts could be considered the only abomination. As established before, homosexual acts were considered unclean because they did not help establish the society. All of the laws in the Torah were established with the ultimate goal of building a large society.

Touching a menstruating woman was considered unclean at any time, not just during holy ceremonies, by the way. As was eating pork. I wonder how many Christians today realize they are still bound, technically, to the laws of the Torah? Remember Jesus himself said he wasn’t coming to replace the Law, but to fulfill it.

I love to see you second-guessing the Christian god when you talk about his “will for his chosen people.” It’s so nice to see people who are so in touch with their god that they can put words in his mouth. By the way, whenever you refer to the Christian god you are supposed to capitalize the references out of respect. I don’t because I don’t believe the Christian figment of imagination is any stronger or more deserving than any other religion’s.

Here’s some HIV/AIDS statistics and where they come from:
Women are becoming increasingly affected by HIV. Approximately 50%, or 19.2 million, of the 38.6 million adults living with HIV or AIDS worldwide are women. http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#cumaids

An estimated 5 million new HIV infections occurred worldwide during 2002; that is, about 14,000 infections each day. More than 95 percent of these new infections occurred in developing countries. http://www.unaids.org/worldaidsday/2002/press/Epiupdate.html
(That’s almost 10 every minute)
As of December 31, 2001, 467,910 deaths among people with AIDS had been reported to the CDC. AIDS is now the fifth leading cause of death in the United States among people aged 25 to 44, and is the leading cause of death for black men in this age group. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/nvsr50_15.pdf

Here’s another interesting fact sheet if you want to learn more about what is actually happening about HIV/AIDS: http://www.who.int/emc-hiv/fact_sheets/pdfs/usa_en.pdf

HIV/AIDS is not a “gay” man’s disease. It was labeled that in the United States way back when, but the numbers don’t justify this position when looking at a world picture.

Unfortunately I can only tell you what I know to be facts, and then show you where those facts are supported by credible research. It is up to you to follow through and check out the research, but it would also be helpful (and lend a lot of credibility to you arguments) if you would cite where you get your statistics and information.

EDITED:

**** it, I don't even care.

Just know that I'm not Christian, never claimed to be, and can't stand organized religion.

[Advance]

Originally posted by mb90078
Advance, why would anyone chose to be a punk or goth in certain areas where it's strongly looked down upon. They are still "condescended, marked as social outcasts, abused, criticized, restricted--life sucks". Yet their genes don't make them that...

How do you know that? The fact is, we don't know how much of ourselves our genes deterimine. We like to think we're totally free and have free will, but everyday science shows us something to prove otherwise.

Originally posted by falsharm
Advance, I find it interesting that you seem to completely disregard the fact that homosexual people are just that, people. They have hopes and desires just like everyone else, and parenting is often one of them. You apparently not only consider homosexual people “unnatural”, but also “inhuman”. Be careful taking this approach as it is the same argument used to keep black people in slavery or to intern Jewish people during World War II. Also, the progenitor of this view was Saint Thomas Ignatius, of the Catholic Church. So you know, when he started writing this view it was a few centuries after the beginning of the Christian Era begins (I refuse to say Before Christ (B.C.) because it assumes Christianity is actually the beginning and ending of everything). He used improperly translates manuscripts, as I already pointed out earlier.

Do you listen? I have nothing against gay people themselves. They're gay, but I don't care. Let them do what they want, when they want, where they want, how they want, so long as I don't have to watch, listen, or partake.

What I said was that I was opposed to the principle of homosexuality. I don't hate gay people any more than I hate people with Down Syndrome or Parkinson's Disease. I can't blame them for their genes.

Originally posted by Buster
why would people be homo sexual, GIRLS ARE MUCH HOTTER THAN GUYS COME ON!!!!

...

Lastly I would like to say, Gay guys your missing alot, Girls these days have got it GOING ON if ever you wanted to come back to our side, you would really not regret it.


:lol: I agree completely.

Originally posted by falsharm
I say the same thing. I didn't make this choice, I was born this way. It's natural.

See, now you're even admitting it's genetic. And, as Lord Lupus said, since it's anti-procreation, it is therefore a genetic disorder. Shot yourself in the foot there, bud.

[falsharm]

Actually Lupus, I am not a genetics expert, all I can use is what the experts have said through credible journals. I am not advocating for any particular “creation” of the homosexual person. If it is proven conclusively that it is caused by genes, then that is the answer to that question. What I did want to point out, however, is that it has never been proven to be caused by genes. Neither has it ever been proven to be caused by how people are raised. My suspicion is that the true answer lies somewhere in the middle. As far as part of nature, homosexuality can be found in every mammalian life form, and can be found in many other species as well. If we are going to judge nature by what animals do, which would make sense to me because they are nature, then perhaps we need to take that into account as well. Your logical reasoning doesn’t equate, it’s flawed, too many jumps.

Buster, all I can say is you are funny. First of all, yes, I am gay. If you would read the first post I did you would have learned that. Secondly, why would anyone be so incredible attracted to huge breasts and a bloody hatchet-slash? Girls don’t necessarily have “it going on” and in fact are equivalents to men in many ways. Perhaps you will realize this when you actually start socializing with them instead of watching them on TV. With you comment on lesbians apparently you missed the whole concept that women don’t really need men for anything anymore.

And I will be the first to admit I am not the smartest person in the world, but I at least know what it is I am talking about instead of spouting off whatever someone else has told me. I have done the research from credible sources, and given you some of those sources to look at for yourself. Perhaps it would behoove you to actually do some research yourself before someone else of average intelligence makes you look stupid again.

[Buster]

Hey brother, ok I forgot to read what you wrote, so your gay doesn;t mean you got to dis me and tell me I don;t socialize with girls, I;m not going to back my self up with saying I'm a pimp, but I don't exactly sit at home every night watching t.v either.

And this whole making me look stupid thing, I think your too full of your self to see the fact of the matter, I don't care what you have to say about me, I know my intelligence and I know your a smart mouth.

And one more thing, my opinion is my opinion if I think girls are hot or beatiful or even have it "going on" who are you to say there not, first of all your gay, and no offense but how would you even know. And trust me there not equilivent to men in there beauty. Guys are hairy, smelly, have no curves or butt, and I'm not going to say anymore but girls are defininelty hotter than guys. But again its your opinion there not as hot as guys, so I'll respect that too...... (loser) (only kidding)

And whats wrong with Big breast!!
EVERYBODY LIKES BIG BREASTS!! lol

Ok I didn;t want to angry you falsharm with any of this so don;t blow up and start your whole "intelligence, smarter than your mother crap", lol.

[Lord Lupus]

Originally posted by falsharm
As far as part of nature, homosexuality can be found in every mammalian life form, and can be found in many other species as well.

... And since they have no social structure closely resembling our own, Genetics it must be.

[Pedestrian]

Originally posted by AsH


EDITED:

**** it, I don't even care.

Just know that I'm not Christian, never claimed to be, and can't stand organized religion.

I'm very like that too orthough im Catholic... I havea muslim girlfriend and boy would i love for her to have no religion for one night...

Originally posted by Buster


And whats wrong with Big breast!!
EVERYBODY LIKES BIG BREASTS!! lol

:D i hear ya buddy :D

And guys the genetic thing....

You cannot blame Homosexuality on genetics.. ok when you start blaming that genetics is the fault of homosexuality you then start looking though tunnel vision... some gay epople grow into becoming gay i.e. being or haning around in a gay sociity, watching gay stuff, maybe even experimenting..
But in my views ITS THE WAY YOU ARE BROUGHT UP...

To trully get this thread making a little more sense i think we have to involve their thoughts and idea's into it becasue most of us are straight and most of us have REALLY don't know what tiks in their heads.. maybe it's teh same as us maybe it's not.. i thinkwe shoudl really consider adding someone who has been there and has done that...

Whjat im stressiong here is that you can soley blame it on ''Genetics''. if you are i want to see proof not chatter...

/EDIT

*note this post is not to insult anybody in any way or sort.

[Jethro]

Originally posted by Buster
Guys are hairy, smelly, have no curves or butt, and I'm not going to say anymore but girls are defininelty hotter than guys. But again its your opinion there not as hot as guys, so I'll respect that too...... (loser) (only kidding)

And whats wrong with Big breast!!
EVERYBODY LIKES BIG BREASTS!! lol




First I must say that big breasts get everywhere. If they are too big they can act like a weapon under certain circumstances. Cases of the nipple to becoming erected which can lead to severe pain. What of this while you are fornicating? Just something to think about the next time you are getting laid...

The part about guys being smelly and hairy is funny. Just because you don't cleanse yourself on a regular basis and have hair in unsightly places does not mean that the rest of the male population does. Guy's butts seem too much nicer looking than girls. They don't look like a diamond divided by a very lengthy crevasse that splits them into two halves.

Thats just my lame ass, two cents.

[Buster]

OK dude, I'm not describing myself here, I was describing guys in general you gotta admit girls smell better than guys because of all the nice smelling shampoo and soap and all that crap. And you know guys are hairy, first of all we don't shave our legs and arms and other places.

Why does everybody try to turn everything around. COME ON!!!

GIRLS ARE HOT!!!! YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT!!!

Let me give you an example..............JENNIFER LOPEZ!!!!!!!
BRITNEY SPEARS!!!!!!

*sigh* you guys are to hard to convince, at least I know some people see it my way, Advance and Pedestrain you guys know what I'm talking about right?

[mb90078]

Again, even though I'm not gay, you must realize that some guys do use that nice smelling shampoo, soap, whatever. They can also shave and stuff...

Does this make them sexy? No not in my opinion.

[Advance]

Originally posted by Lord Lupus
... And since they have no social structure closely resembling our own, Genetics it must be.

Knock 'em dead. :cool:

Sorry, Buster, but I can't back you up here. I use liquid soap with a puff and fresh-smelling shampoo. I'm a clean kid. I still agree though that even when you compare both a guy and a girl who do that, the girl is attractive--the guy is just being a decent human being.

[falsharm]

Well guys, that's it, you beat me, lol. So I'm gonna just lay my diseases fa**oty ass down and die of the AIDS I caught from having sex with a "straight" man so I don't give it to you.

It's all right, because I'll be watching the straight crap that is shoved in my face every single day. I guess you saying not to shove gay crap into your face wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't so much straight crap getting shoved into mine. Have you ever watched tv?

Anyway, breasts? who needs them, really. If you have them they give you back problems and your are the center of mysogenistic men (much like most of you who view women more as objects and don't seem to fathom you are talking about real people.) Well, I can't blame you. I mean you are being brought up in a society that tells you everything you are talking about is right. That's all right though. I mean, the subjegation of minorities and women still continues. Don't beleive me? Read over your posts and tell me otherwise.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with people who refuse to get a clue. Buster, I really do hope you grow up some day before a woman kicks your ass for the views you've expressed on this board. Btw, I have been on "your side" if you want to call it that. And no, girls "aren't where it's at." but apparently you like sluts anyway, so . . . what can I say?

Have fun everyone, you all deserve each other, and everything else you bring on your heads.

PS, hey Jethro, I saw the movie. It was pretty cool, but I think I like the other one a little better. See you around.

[Pedestrian]

Originally posted by Advance


Sorry, Buster, but I can't back you up here. I use liquid soap with a puff and fresh-smelling shampoo. I'm a clean kid. I still agree though that even when you compare both a guy and a girl who do that, the girl is attractive--the guy is just being a decent human being.


You guys aregetting way out of hand about this whole homosexuality thing now...

[Lord Lupus]

Oh look, falsharm leaves because he's not winning.:sidestare

The sooner Homosexuals stop with their "we're being cast out because we're different", and their "we're gay, get used to it" and "it's natural, YOU'RE in the wrong!!!" crap, the better.

it can't be natural simply because sex is the method of procreation, and homosexual sex yields no results.

Now away with you and your buggery, I don't care what you think, do, look or sound like, and we're not gonna get this sorted out...

[falsharm]

Actually, Lord Lupu, I'm still here and around. It would be foolish of you to think you have actually won, although I know you would like to think that.

Perhaps you misunderstand how gay people feel, wait, I know you do. Gay people only want equal treatment. I don't want to have to watch straight sex every time I turn on the TV. Should we have gay sex on tv? I don't know if that is the right answer, I just know I get tired of seeing straight sex everywhere I turn.

I would also like to see the number one reason for successful teen suicide not be because of homosexuality. Perhaps you didn't realize that? More teenagers kill themselves because they are afraid of being homosexual than for any other reason. That in itself makes this an incredible issue, regardless of what causes it or if you think it is "gross" or not. Almost everyone here has said "I don't care if people are as long as I don't have to see it." I'm sure that makes the friends you have that may be going through these issues feel real good about hanging out around you.

Regardless of all the arguments about homosexuality being "natural" it is important to realize this is a serious issue that needs to be looked at with compassion and understanding. Unfortunately I tried to bring you some understanding and some of it came out through anger. That really is why I won't post arguments here anymore. Most of you are not educated enough (I'm not saying you are stupid, I'm saying you haven't had the opportunity to truely learn about this issue) to understand what it is you are talking about.

Anyway, I'm still here, and I will still speak.

Oh, btw, according to the national definition, f you have ever had sex in any position other than the missionary position (including oral, 69ing, anal, "doggie" style, etc.) you have commited an act of sodomy. Apparently those "perverts" in Sodom and Gomorrah did more than just "men-on-men" action. Thought you would like to know.

[Lord Lupus]

Now, I've never said anything about sodomy, suicide, or being 'grossed out' as you americans put it.

Oddly enough, I see very little sex on TV, Straight, Gay, Human-on-Animal, Human-on-Machine or whatever. I suppose British TV is too 'stuck-up' to show it.

The only reason I'm actually in this thread is to get the idea that it's unnatural through to you- I don't care whether it's morally right or wrong, whether you love being gay or hate it, I don't even care if you like the kind of person you are full stop, never mind being gay.

I'm just here to tell you that it's genetic, and furthermore, a genetic abnormality. It may well be an abnormality shared by many species, but it's still an abnormality.
And as someone else said, until a gay man pops out a sprog, it's still an abnormality.

Even then I'd wonder about the bloke...:sidestare

[Buster]

Ok........ falsharm.......

I don't know how to even start with you, you just don't like when I express my views of anything. All you can say is that I'm uneducated, that were all uneducated.

Were too ignorant to understand what you have to say, well all I can see is that your too ignorant to understand God's plan.

His plan started with a male and a female not a male and male not a female and a female. Its all natural, its how its SUPPOUSE TO BE.

There is no use in argueing that. And don;t avoid the fact by saying people can bread for the sake of breading and still be gay or with your whole "I'm not christian so I don;t believe that," well we had to start somewhere and thats were I say it started.

When it all boils down to it, there is no way for you to be right you can not win this argument cause that is how it HAS to be. We are made up of two different sexes for a reason. To love and to cherish the opposite as our mates. Granted were suppouse to love each other but on a totally different level were suppuse to be attaracted and be phyiscal and breed with the opposite sex.

And stop with this whole a girl is going kick me in the balls and trying to downgrad breasts and insult it just because you don;t have it and your trying to make us feel like we shouldn;t apperciate it, thats just not going to work cause like I said before girls have "GOT IT GOING ON." And plus I think girls would like males to be attaracted to them and I'm just showing my attaraction and it doesn;t only exstist on a phyiscal level just in case you want to throw that in my face with all your crap.

Understand man we don;t hate you for being gay, we just think you have mis understood it all, and anyway this whole debate thing is for us to express are views and most of us know.......that we like girls.
So don't reply with hatered everytime, come on were all just trying to live on this earth peaceful. Were all part of the human race I know there are a few or actully a great many who don;t appericate the differences in people but also we weren;t made perfect. But to restate my main point, there are just some differences that I say were not suppouse to even be differences, if you can understand what I'm saying.

Its not natural its not the way its SUPPOUSE TO BE, but if it wasn't suppouse to be than why is it?

I guess we will never know until the end. But until then, lets get drunk and party!!! YEA!!!!! WIRED GAMERS ROCKS!!!
WOOOOO OOOH!!!!!:p :delight: :p :delight:

[Lord Lupus]

...
Not exactly keen on the last, overly-sentimental part of that post, but I can answer the question.

Because Homosexuality is a genetic error. No getting around that, matey.:sidestare

[GINA]

oh my god, i have been missing out. i don't even know where to start!

buster: you sound so immature it's driving me nuts. all this crap about "girls are hot man! boobs alcohol britney spears woo!" please. i think you're getting a little out of hand and being a little rude, not only to falsharm but to guys and girls everywhere. you're making girls sound like all they're worth are breasts and something good to look at. you're making guys sound like sh*t, when really they're not as bad as you make them out to be. you're talking about how falsharm has a smart mouth on him, but it seems to me like you think only your opinion is right.

falsharm: i feel so sorry for you. not your life in general, but it seems like all you're doing is defending yourself with people who live in a box and refuse to listen. not everyone that has posted, but many people.

i lost track of what i was saying, my dinner's here. i respect everyone's opinions, but it doesn't seem like a lot of people are open minded to people who have EXPERIENCE IN THE SUBJECT. that is all, over and out.

and btw: i'm so glad i'm not lesbian, i hate girls :|

[Lord Lupus]

That's just cack, mate. Refrain from posting any more nonsensical garbage in serious thread, aye? Otherwise I'm gonna haveta import my Smiting Scythe from another board, and it takes ages...

[Advance]

Originally posted by falsharm
Perhaps you misunderstand how gay people feel, wait, I know you do. Gay people only want equal treatment. I don't want to have to watch straight sex every time I turn on the TV. Should we have gay sex on tv? I don't know if that is the right answer, I just know I get tired of seeing straight sex everywhere I turn.

...

That in itself makes this an incredible issue, regardless of what causes it or if you think it is "gross" or not. Almost everyone here has said "I don't care if people are as long as I don't have to see it." I'm sure that makes the friends you have that may be going through these issues feel real good about hanging out around you.


Do I really have to point out the incongruity here, or can we all see it plain as day? Anyway, I'll go on assuming that we're all smart enough and wait for someone to call me out on the fact that falsharm is sick of watching straight sex, and yet thinks we are subhuman because we refuse to watch gay sex...

[AsH]

If I remember correctly (and I don't feel like rummaging through the last 35 posts), falsharm became angry and rude first. Sorry if this is not true.

Falsharm, I read those documents you gave me and both said that:

A. The vast majority of cases are of homosexual male-to-male contact.

and B. HIV is still predominantly contracted through anal sex.

Why does everyone even give a ****? Live your life.

Debate forums only lead to flaming, as I've witnessed at many. Mostly because people can't control themselves on issues they're passionate about.

[Buster]

Well said my brethren!!!

CAN I GET AN AMEN!

[GINA]

buster, stop spamming

ash, i agree. i don't understand why people are so curious about gay people's bedroom behavior and why they like it. what if i said that even though i am straight, i enjoy being handcuffed and beated while having sex? i bet you all would question that as well. who cares what people enjoy sexually, which is ultimately what is happening as far as gays and straights. guys enjoy the company of other guys, but that doesn't make them gay. what makes a man gay is what he does sexually with another man, whether it's looking at them and saying "nice ass" or doing...other censored things. same with women, except for some reason, it's really "hot" to see a lesbian :rollseyes i say who cares if someone is gay or straight. really, why do you care? i'm curious

[ziroi]

I believe it's safe to say that when I mentioned earlier that many religions imposed the fact that homosexuality was a defiance, if you will, of God's laws, that did not mean that everyone abided by this law.

Falsharm: You say that the Christian Bible has been revised in several editions, so that in turn had made homosexuality wrong. You used the example of Sodom and Gomorrah when showing that homosexual behaviors were never mentioned. Why then in KJV Gen 19:7 did Lot mention "brethren, do not so wickedly". He did not want them to commit to man. If commiting to man instead of woman was considered wicked, then what of homosexual acts?

I don't deny that the Torah was the original word of God, and I don't deny that there have been many versions of the word printed thereafter, but I do not understand where you got the information that the scripture was ever misinterpreted to that degree, when it states, indirectly or not, in the KJV (the version of the Bible you had quoted) that homosexual acts were considered wicked.

You definitely know what your talking about, but when it comes down to religion, you can't really debate on religious views, and what's misinterpreted or not, because everyone believes differently, and everyone has a belief in scripture. (What I said in my first post) Whether any of it is right or wrong is a matter of personal belief, faith and known proven fact about your religion. Thanks for your time.

[Advance]

Sodom and Gomorrah are bad examples in the fight against homosexuality. Their story can easily be construed as merely anti-rape. They were, after all, going to take the angel against its will.

[falsharm]

*sigh, where to start.

Well, Buster, we give what we get. By the way, were people “supposed” to go to the moon, or were people “supposed” to be able to fly? These are both done through mechanical advantages, so perhaps a better question would be, are women “supposed to not be married? Are they “supposed” to not work so they can take care of children? In a world of such varying identities and ideas, how can anyone say what people are “supposed” to be doing?

While genetics can play a part in sexuality, again there is no proof it decides. If there is no proof, how can homosexuality be caused by a genetic error? Or are you just betting that they will come up with definitive proof, kind of like they came up with definitive proof that black people were inferior to white people.

I’m not sure where you got the subhuman part from, Advance. I was only trying to point out to you how often I deal with exactly what you don’t want to. You don’t want to see anything that looks like gay sex (except maybe lesbian sex because most straight guys hold this fantasy that they will get it on with two women) but I have to see straight sex in nearly every movie I watch and often on television shows. What’s fair in that?

Ash, I’m not sure you read it correctly. While the majority of HIV/AID cases in the US are in the homosexual category, there are other categories. If you add everything up to be gay vs. straight, you will see straight people actually outweigh the gay people. Also, worldwide there is absolutely no competition. Over 70% of cases worldwide are heterosexual. The contraction through anal sex may be the number one way of transmission in gay males, but with the other cases added up it is not the most common way of transmission.

Gina, I love the support you have given me during all of these posts. I really wish it could be left a bedroom issue. I agree, I don’t care what someone else does in their bedroom, but unfortunately this country does not let it stay there. Look at the recent debate over the Red Cross and giving blood. When a worldwide organization discriminates against perfectly healthy gay men because they are gay, the issue is brought out of the bedroom.

Ziroi, I think you have some valid points, but I wonder what you meant by the first one. You are reading into the scripture a lot if you think what you quoted speaks to homosexuality and not other things. Perhaps if you considered it meaning a lot more than you are using it for it would mean more.

Also, your last paragraph was great and I hope everyone read it. I really appreciate how you said that, because of the fact that scriptures themselves are different and reflect a huge array of views, that we shouldn’t consider scripture at all as a valid argument for the validity, or non-validity, of homosexuality.

And Advance, perhaps you are actually understanding what I was trying to point out about the Bible. It can be read a million different ways, and two parties can use the same Bible to justify opposite opinions. That in itself makes it impossible to use in an argument.

[Lord Lupus]

Just accept you're in the minority.
Everything in life panders to the majority.

[ziroi]

Originally posted by falsharm
but I have to see straight sex in nearly every movie I watch and often on television shows. What’s fair in that?


Sorry if this gets slightly off topic but this bothers me a little; why do you HAVE to watch straight sex falsharm? Why watch the movie if you find it unfair that you HAVE to watch it in the first place? No one is making anyone do anything. Humans have choices in life. You can choose not to watch straight sex in movies or on TV.

And sex is not nearly in every movie unless you happen to be only interested in those kinds of movies...

[Jethro]

Originally posted by ziroi


Sorry if this gets slightly off topic but this bothers me a little; why do you HAVE to watch straight sex falsharm? Why watch the movie if you find it unfair that you HAVE to watch it in the first place? No one is making anyone do anything. Humans have choices in life. You can choose not to watch straight sex in movies or on TV.

And sex is not nearly in every movie unless you happen to be only interested in those kinds of movies...

It seems like no one around here can read correctly.
Originally posted by falsharm

Perhaps you misunderstand how gay people feel, wait, I know you do. Gay people only want equal treatment. I don't want to have to watch straight sex every time I turn on the TV. Should we have gay sex on tv? I don't know if that is the right answer, I just know I get tired of seeing straight sex everywhere I turn.


I do believe that Falsharm is saying that it seems like every time he turns on the T.V. there is some sort of heterosexual sex on. He does not HAVE to watch it, your right. I feel that the bigger issue is that there isn't any homosexual sex, and if there is, it is used to be laughed at. It isn't funny. People who are laughing should be the ones laughed at.

[Pedestrian]

gdo this is becoming more of an insulting contest than a debate over Homosexuality!!!

GROW UP

[GINA]

haha i agree pedestrian
lupus, why does it have to come down to who's a minority and who isn't? that's not very fair, and i don't think it really matters

[Buster]

I'm pretty sure this thread had overstayed its welcome, that is that I think everyone has voiced their views and everything that can be said about homesexuality has been said, or almost everything.

I mean you can leave it open and people can keep bashing each other and spamming or you could close it..............and stop all that.

[Lord Lupus]

Originally posted by GINA
lupus, why does it have to come down to who's a minority and who isn't? that's not very fair, and i don't think it really matters

It may not be fair, but it's how the world works.

[GINA]

i know...and that's not fair :sidestare haha nothing you can really do about it, but you're right.

buster, why close the thread if people are still talking? that would be silly. you're really off topic and you're spamming in this area (again) so once again, cut it out!

[Harry]

o m g, I didn't think people like this actually existed anymore..... I mean every now and then you will hear on the news that someone was killed because they were gay and stuff like that, but I didn't think there were people with 140 IQ's that actually agreed with these anti-gay opinions. Some of these comments are just so immature and brimming on the edge of something a southern hick would say. (no offense to southerners.) And to whoever was saying, "GIRLS ARE JUST HOT I LOVE **** BLAH BLAH BLAH,"...... are you 12 or just extremely unintelligent?

[falsharm]

What's strange is that, for once, I almost agree with Buster. Everyone has gotten their views out on the table, and this forum has turned into a yelling match. It saddens me too, Harry, that there are still people who beleive some of the things people in this forum have said. Unfortunately it will be quite a few more years before Society can even come close to accepting anything.

I guess it's ok, I mean it's been 50 years since the end of segregation (supposedly) and there are still plenty of racists. It will be a long time before people actually understand genderism. Unfortunately it has to take the shape of what we have witnessed in this forum, but I only hope education will help everyone understand.

Whileit may be the majority that rules, it is not the majority that is pandered to. I think we should all remember that the United States is built on the idea that all people are equal, which means you have to take into account the minority. Speaking of, it will be interesting to see the change in politics and "common" thought in 2008 when "minorities" will actually outnumber the "majority".

[Lord Lupus]

Meh, genetics.

BTW, if you're so proud, use this: http://www.imahosting.com/sigs/gaysmilie0202.gif

No offence of course. I just saw it, and thought of this thread.

[falsharm]

That's funny, actually. I don't think I would ever use it just because I don't really flame at all, but it's still funny.

Takes all kinds, doesn't it?

[Sodge]

I don't care about sexual preference. I know a lot of gay and biseuxal people. They're all cool. I'm not freaked out by them at all. I also don't see it as a disease -- it's a choice. (Mr. Miller -- codePhoenix -- knows why... and feel free to tell). Religion is pointless, though, IMHO. I'm sacreligious.

Of course, may I remind you all that these are my personal views.

[Harry]

I really don't think that is a choice... I mean who would CHOOSE a life where you were constantly persecuted by society? I don't think you can choose to be attracted to one gender instead of another.

[GINA]

well you can't always think of it as, "what would society think if i did so and so." you'd never really get anywhere, because there's always people that disagree with something that you do. let's say i suddenly became sexually attracted to women. my feeling about women would become so strong that i wouldn't care what other people thought, i just care about me and what i like to do, and i know there are other people in the world that feel the same way i do -- enter the lesbians.

personally, i can see why men choose to date other men. i think girls are really annoying, i wouldn't want to date them.

[Buster]

I just have a genral question for falsharm (since his the only person on this thread who has admitted his gay) and if anybody else knows feel free to anwser. I want to know how one gay person knows that another person is gay?
Like if you were a homosexual guy and you saw another guy who was really attaractive to you how would you know if he was gay or not. I mean would you just come on to him and hope that his gay, that could be really bad if the other guy wasn't gay.
Please enlighten me on this subject.

[i¢eqüeen8]

Most people will quote about Sodom and Gomorrah but here’s what went on. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their entire failings. The Bible never specifies they performed homosexual behaviors. It said the crowd demanded the two angels be brought out so they might “know” them (King James Genesis 19.4-11).

ok that is the king james version. i know the bible very very well. and if you must know its called the New World Translation (that means its not old english) of the Holy scriptures. its translated from the Hebrew scriptures. and yes sodom and gomorrah was destroyed bc of the fact that the city was wicked and yea they were very gay. and what do you think getting to know someone meant?? do you think they wanted to pull the two men out of the house to talk to them. yes a huge mob wanted to TALK to them and get to know them in that way. do you understand how dumb that sounds. and you can actually look up more scriptures that condemn men that lie down with men. that obviously also includes women that lie down with women. it also condemns beastilality. and even fornication and adultery.. the list could go on. you obviously need to do more research.

[Josh]

I thought they proved it was a lack of testosterone, with the whole WWII test. When the mothers are under extreme amounts of pressure / stress the baby lacks some of the genetic makeup they need, predisposing them to the lack of testosterone that leads them to become "homosexual". Not sure about the female group though, wasn’t ever brought up.

Anyway, where I stand with the whole issue. If you’re gay, great it's no ones damn business. We all portray a gay as the "fairy" or "butch" of the group. Why? The same reason why "the white people" view the "black people" as druggies and drug dealers; by actions of others. I believe that gays should go back to the way they were - kept inside the closet. Not saying, they shouldn’t expression affection to their lover, but why not get it out of everyone’s face. That’s one of my biggest pet peeves. When you see someone walking around all funny, talking all funny and explaining to the whole world how they are SO homosexual; and you know damn well they can walk just like everyone else, they can lose the moronic hand gestures and start talking about other things than their sexual preference. I've grown up in the "freak" group. I've found that several people do it purely for attention, which I find sick and extremely twisted.

I’m sick of this whole ideal with the “90’s expression”. You’re gay and proud? How about you keep it to yourself. The world doesn’t need to know your personal business and when they find out, drop the subject. Plain and simple, they don’t want to accept you they don’t have to. How many straight people have parades to celebrate the fact that they are straight?

A question I have, and I probably have the answer but I’m simply asking. What makes girls so attracted to homosexual men? I mean they sit there are talk about how they can have “girl-talk” with them, well isn’t that what the other girl down the road is for? Or the idea that they can’t have them, um… call me an idiot, but if I can’t have something I’m moving on with my life. You look at these people (the one’s that girls find attractive) and they’re everything the “ideal man” isn’t. Please don’t take this the wrong way; I’m not pushing this towards all gay people. I’m taking about the ones who are “fairies” (not my words, simply a description). Normally they are tiny, are extremely opinionated (why throw rocks from a glass house?) and won’t shut up about being gay.

...and that's my 2 cents

[Harry]

lol, since when did white people think that black people were druggies and drug dealers?

[Buster]

Since its a typical sterotype of african americans.

And Josh bro you told it better than anybody else on this thread. That is the best post I've seen on this thread since the thread was started.

The whole thing about if your gay keep it yourself don't have to tell everyone your proud and use the hand gestures and all, that WAS PURE GENIUS!

Man I just loved what you had to say. I know this thread has been the most controversal, but you just struck gold with your points. Support all of that.

PREACH ON MY BROTHER!!

[GINA]

good points josh. and i'll try and answer your girl-liking-homo question. i have a couple of gay friends that used to live below me, and they were both nice guys. they didn't flaunt they were gay, which was cool and everyone appreciated it, and they were open to talk about being gay and didn't take gay jokes the wrong way. they were the "cool" gay guys. but i never went to them to talk about "girly" things. i'm probably not the right person to answer, because i don't really have girl talk with other girls, but my only explaination could be that the girls can say feminine things to a guy that is perceived as feminine, but also get a masculine point of view.

and as a side note, i don't care if you're gay or straight, PDA is more annoying than you could believe! i dont mine hand holding or maybe a kiss on the cheek, but when you're grabbing your partners ass in public or practically making out or hanging all over each other, please stop!! if you're not going to have respect for yourselves, then respect the people around you. (sorry, with josh bringing it up and seeing it at the movies tonight, it's become an issue)

[i¢eqüeen8]

seriously. thats a pretty lame comment, Josh. not every white person thinks every black person is a druggie. you need to think before you type or speak.

[d2alio]

man I must be a druggie/dealer to a TON of people then lol :) however i can understand that josh meant that in the 'stereotypical' sense (in other words, the people that still live in the dark)...granted, there are still a LOT of people that do feel that way (g0ober and I can relate to this due to practically anytime we go somewhere we get stared at cause of me)... but it's not true that 'all' think that way... just a select chunk...

Edit:
To further clarify why we get stared at it's because we stay in the rich cities so the people think I don't belong lol... they have no clue that not only did I live in torrance (recently moved to Long Beach, but will be returning to Torrance) but I'm also pretty wealthy... but, that's our little secret ;)

[GINA]

i think throughout this thread, every time someone says that someone sees a group of people a certain way, they mean the majority or as a stereotype

did that make any sense? 0_o i think you guys know what i'm trying to get at

[Harry]

Yea, but people stereotype gay people everywhere you go; black people are only stereotyped in rural and suburban areas.... in other words, areas where the majority of the people there are white, if not all white.

[d2alio]

Originally posted by Harry
Yea, but people stereotype gay people everywhere you go; black people are only stereotyped in rural and suburban areas.... in other words, areas where the majority of the people there are white, if not all white.

not necessarily... black people stereotype each other all the time... for example, the 'ghetto' lingo/language, clothes, etc. Everywhere I go I'm expected to speak like a fag (ala the ghetto lingo) and like certain things, etc... because I'm actually PROPER other black people usually 'cast me out of the club' so to speak (like it matters! lol) or say that I'm wannabe white... pretty funny stuff... i usually just take it as a comment seeing as how what they really are saying is that i'm not ghetto and stupid like they are...

sorry guys (speaking to other ghetto people), but I'm actually making something of myself... so there

:rofl::p

[Josh]

Thanks for the support (all of those who have agreed with what I have said)

As for the black people being considered "druggies and drug dealers". It is a wide known stereotype, whether or not you believe in it or not it's still a wide known stereotype. It's most because they were the ones in the early 90's standing on the street corners selling, while the little white kids sat at home and the cops couldn't get in the house. Not every time I see a black person do I instantly think "drug dealer!" but a lot of white people do believe that stereotype and a lot of black people too. (not trying to create a black white issue out of this thread in the least - simply defending what I said). Also too add, idealy I try to treat everyone of any color, race, sexuality the same.

-Josh

[falsharm]

I’ve been trying to post, Buster, to answer your question but my posts all seem to be disappearing, almost like someone is taking them out. I dunno, but it sucks.

Actually, Icequeen, after the many years of Biblical study in three different languages, I do not think you can say you have the experience to tell whether a text is mistranslated or not. I suggest you go talk to your local rabbi. You might also note that, while I did quote NKJ version once, I also quoted other versions other times.

Josh, the whole theory about hormones during WWII was proven wrong a few years back. Also, you are working on the societal stereotype for gay people. You have identified a few behaviors you don’t like and those are what you object to. Basically you want to tell everyone else how to act, right, because that is what you are doing. Perhaps we could all use Josh’s Code of Non-Gay Conduct when living our lives. I like that idea.

I think it is great everyone has started talking about this as a stereotype that should not be believed. At least I think that’s what I started to hear and was hoping a correlation between black stereotypes and gay stereotypes was being drawn (about how those stereotypes are almost never right anyway).

It’s too bad then that most of you don’t have any problem with gay people as long as they don’t act “gay”. So what this tells me is that as long as gay people act like straight people, instead of being free to act however they want to, then they are tolerable. It is interesting to see a lot of you write how you “don’t mind” gay people or anything. That’s great. It is very reassuring to know that as long as I act exactly the way everyone wants me to act then they “don’t mind” me, but as soon as I actually act how I want, or say what I want, then someone objects to the “loud gay man in the corner” and I get shut out. Interesting, wouldn’t you say?

[xNaChOx]

I am a Hispanic and an African American (my mother is Hispanic and my father is African). I lived in Jamaica, a city in Queens, New York. I am a huge rap fan and I grew up in the midst of what people call "ghetto."

Not every black guy is a "drug dealer." Many of us have made a life for ourselves, like d2alio for instance. It is horrible that even people of our own race, as in d2alio's situation, are offending Dameon because he does not look or speak "ghetto." People who are black do not need to. It does not make you look better. A word that I personally hate hearing (although it is in many hip-hop songs) is "n.i.g.g.e.r." or "n.i.g.g.a." I find it just as bad when a black person says it as when a white person says it. It will always be remembered as a word that was used in the period when blacks were not at the same level of appreciation as whites.

As for the BET contreversy, I think it is a way for black people to keep up traditions. Hip-hop is a tradition of mine. I get a lot of what I hear from it.

It is still contreversy on whether homosexuality is a gene. You cannot tell people that it is yet. However, that proves that it is just as bad as not liking someone because they are black. As one of the early posters said, it is not under their control.

Josh: I second Buster on his opinion of your post. If your gay, that is good for you, nobody cares! Keep your ****in' business to your ****in' self!

[xNaChOx]

Originally posted by i¢eqüeen8
seriously. thats a pretty lame comment, Josh. not every white person thinks every black person is a druggie. you need to think before you type or speak.

Josh is 100% on target. Don't get ****in' mad at him! Looking at what people see black people doing on TV in things like music videos, and what they hear on the radio and on the news, people get the impression that black people are bad people. It is the sad truth, and Josh told it how it is. Good job on his part. i¢eqüeen8, you gotta **** off and realize a few things.

THANK YOU!

[xNaChOx]

Just as a note, sorry for the harsh language. It is just that some of you people say great things, some of you, however, should be quiet. You all, however, are stating your opinion, which is A OK!

I want this world to be a better place.. My opinions are strong.

[i¢eqüeen8]

Actually, Falsharm you need to go talk to your rabbi or whoever you see. I have been studying the bible deeply for more years than you ever have or probably will. I know my bible very well and what you took out of what happened at Sodom and Gomorrah is not accurate. Since you have been studying the bible for so long I'm sure you read the part where it says that God detests people who get together with the same sex. Or as the bible puts it, " men who lie with men."

[i¢eqüeen8]

Originally posted by XxQuEeNzNaZcHoxX


Josh is 100% on target. Don't get ****in' mad at him! Looking at what people see black people doing on TV in things like music videos, and what they hear on the radio and on the news, people get the impression that black people are bad people. It is the sad truth, and Josh told it how it is. Good job on his part. i¢eqüeen8, you gotta **** off and realize a few things.

THANK YOU!

OK, I live in L.A. I do see many many many black people that would rather be a thug or a gangster shooting people up or a drug dealer. So guess what XxQuEeNzNaZcHoxX, that is really how it is. Yea that is what i mostly see. But, since thats some of my world I try to give every person the benefit of the dought. Whether they dress "thuggish" or not. Sometimes black people just like the look and arent even bad. It's very hard to not stereotype black people because most black people really are drug dealers or something worse. And besides XxQuEeNzNaZcHoxX why do you think rappers or some other black entertainers act that way?? Why?? so that they can relate to the audience they are targeting so that they make more money. They dont act that way just because.

But guess what! I get stereotyped too! Yea, black people think that just because I'm white I must be incredibly racist. I even knew some black kids from my school who thought that its impossible for a black person to be racist. But they were racist against me!

Just to make sure that everyone knows, I dont believe every black person is a thug. Thats why i give every person the benefit of the dought. Just ask Dameon. He can tell you. He can also back me up on this.

[GINA]

i give everyone the benefit of the "dought" too, hehe (it's doubt, for future reference) oh boy, anyway...

when did this become a debate on black stereotypes? i thought we were talking about gays? nevertheless, who gives a damn. i don't care if you're gay, straight, bi, black, white, asian, hispanic, alien, purple, whatever. there's gonna be people that don't like you based on skin color or sexual preference. get over it, that's just the way life is. there are also people that don't care, and people that march for it, and people that love you, and people that would rather see you die. it's just a fact of life, that's the way it is, can't change it no matter what the story books say.

and i'm with icequeen: blacks aren't the only ones that get a bad rap. if i go into DC, there are all these black people that will stare like "hey, what's this white girl doing here?" it seems white people get stereotyped with "they have a better life" or "they hate black people" or "they don't understand what we've been through." come on people, this is so stupid! you don't think my ancestors had to go though **** like yours? sure, it wasn't slavery, but i'm sure the italians went through some kind of crap too (i didn't pass history, what can i say)

moral of the story: everyone is stereotyped. not everyone likes you. quit *****ing about it, it's not doing anything. the end.

and stop double/triple posting, there's an edit button for a reason

[Jethro]

Is this really the end? No.

Gina, you seem really cool! But..

Originally posted by GINA
i don't care if you're gay, straight, bi, black, white, asian, hispanic, alien, purple, whatever. there's gonna be people that don't like you based on skin color or sexual preference.

You say it's a preference. :rollseyes If it were in fact a preference, then that means that it is a choice. But how would one be able to differenciate between heterosexuality, homosexuality, transsexuality, or bisexuality? If it is a preference, I would just like to know: at what age did you choose to become heterosexual, assuming that you are from previous posts? I speak for myself, but I feel that it is a sexual orientation not preference. Even the Dictionary agrees. :delight:

Hope that didn't sound to harsh. :|

[GINA]

not harsh at all...this is a debate after all. here's why i call it a sexual "preference:" when we're born, we learn from what we see around us. in society, the norm is being hetero, not homo (at least what we see, i don't know about statistics). as we grow up, we get to make more decisions and choices, but once again, we remember and (for the most part) follow what we see around us. babies and children grow up seeing boys and girls together, not boys with boys or girls with girls. (please remember i'm talking about normal or usual circumstances, don't say "what about people with gay parents!") anywho...

as people get older, they discover that some people get it on with their own sex. i know some people will say "i was always attracted to men" or vice versa, depending on their gender. whatever. i'm not sure how it works. i just know i am sexually attracted to men. sure, i can look at a girl and say "she's pretty" but not have it turn into "i wanna get in bed with her". boy i'm way off track here...my point is that people grow up and learn who they are attracted to and what they prefer. i know a lot of gay people have said they're experimented with the other sex, but they eventually settle down with either boy or girl. there is no set age that you "choose" what kind of person you want, you go through life experimenting until you become comfortable with whatever. that's just my opinion though

i kinda lost my train of thought...but i hope i sort of explained myself. and thanks jethro, you're cool too :)

[Jethro]

For some people, the 'norm' is being queer (meant in a nice way to include homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals and transgendered). I feel that you are born according to your sexual orientation. At a young age you wouldn't know what to expect or how to make of any feeling that you may have regarding any interaction seen between heterosexuals or homosexuals. Basically, normal is defined differently for each person.

I also fail to understand how any of what you said makes it a preference. :sure:

[GINA]

because you choose what kind of person you want to be with, or you "prefer" to be with one kind of person

[xNaChOx]

Originally posted by Jethro
For some people, the 'norm' is being queer (meant in a nice way to include homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals and transgendered). I feel that you are born according to your sexual orientation. At a young age you wouldn't know what to expect or how to make of any feeling that you may have regarding any interaction seen between heterosexuals or homosexuals. Basically, normal is defined differently for each person.

I also fail to understand how any of what you said makes it a preference. :sure:

Right..;p

[Jethro]

Gina - I didn't choose anything. I was born who I am. And since you prefer men over women, how was your experience with women? You must not have liked it since you decided to be straight?

[falsharm]

Icequeen, I find it interesting that we have broken down into our own personal debate. If I can ask, how many years have you been studying your bible, and in what languages? I know for me I have been studying the original Torah, that's the beginning of the old testament for those who aren't sure, for over 27 years now. I suppose I should also inlude over 16 years of study in new testament in English and in Aramaic. Somehow I think spending that many years of study in not only the letter of the writings, but also in ancient culture and philosophy