View Full Version : Abortion
Attrox
05-10-2003, 02:03 PM
For the past decade, iAbortion has been a fairly big issue. I personally think it is wrong to kill a living baby when it is half way through pregnancy. It is the same as killing a normal person. But for things such as birth control, which girls can take shortly after having sex, I have no problem with, seeing how the women wouldn't be inpregnated by then.
But if you screw up, don't use protection, and find out your girlfriend is pregnant a few weeks later...well then too bad. It's your own fault, and you need to take responsibility for the child.
Though, under conditions such as rape, I think acceptions should be made. The person who is raped had no control over that, and should have the right to kill the baby if she wants to.
What are your feelings on abortion?
you can't straddle the fence with this type of issue, however tempting it may be. you're saying it's not ok, but it's ok for other reasons. i agree, it sucks if you're raped and stuck with a kid, but a woman can go into the office and say "i was raped, i want an abortion", but is there a way to prove this? maybe she just had unprotected sex and is using rape as an excuse because she knows that will get her baby killed. even though i think a woman, or anyone for that matter, should have a choice for doing what they want with their bodies, a baby is not your body, it is a person. and they have to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. if a man and woman are not ready or prepared for having a kid, then either take lots of precautions, or don't have sex.
BrianH
05-10-2003, 04:33 PM
I believe abortion should be legal after a certain point. It's a biological fact that babies don't develop neural networks for well into the pregnancy so how is it living if it's 100% dependant on the mother and can't think at all?
Besides what's more tragic out of these scenarios.
1. A mother getting an abortion after a month into pregnancy
2. A mother drowns her unwanted new born baby or kills the baby in one matter of another (this aucutally happens quite often)
3. The mother doesn't have enough money but has to keep the baby and then works all day, all night to pay for food and a trailor?
Mainly if the baby is unwanted, nothing good can come out once the baby is born. Depending on the mother, she may do very irational things and create great problems.
Manex
05-10-2003, 05:19 PM
what a typical discussion!
well...im not gonna type a whole essay cause i gotta go soon...but i think it should be the womans choice. its her body, and she should do what she wants.
Lord Lupus
05-10-2003, 05:52 PM
I totally agree with MrLister.
i hate to sound cliche by saying "they can always put it up for adoption" .... but it's so true
and i've also heard that a lot of the women that get abortions either regret it later or have severe nightmares about it
Attrox
05-10-2003, 07:04 PM
And in many cases, parents bail their daughter or son out when they have a child. If you can't work around it, then there is always adoption. Good point. :)
dotVT
05-10-2003, 07:20 PM
Well I was adopted -- so the idea of abortion still kinda irks me. Granted I understand that sometimes it is not the females fault (i.e. rape etc...) but still it is a human life. Now depending on your religious beliefs you may disagree with when the "fetus" actually becomes a human. Well I just can't condone it without making myself into a hypocrite.
BrianH
05-10-2003, 07:58 PM
GINA: Do you want to carry an unwanted baby for 9 months and go through all the pain, mood swings, sickness and then give it to adoption?
Advance
05-10-2003, 10:21 PM
I'm completely for abortion. There are already way too many kids out there living in families that can't support them financially with parents who don't know how to raise them. In fact, I think we should be encouraging abortion for those who aren't ready. The population's already out of control as it is, and we shouldn't have to support all these kids. Life would be easier with more abortions.
Besides, you have to consider that, even if you believe it's the equivalent of murder--is that really any worse than a life of suffering, abuse, and poverty? I don't think it is. If I were going to live that kind of life, I'd hope my parents would have some compassion and abort me.
mb90078
05-11-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by GINA
you can't straddle the fence with this type of issue, however tempting it may be. you're saying it's not ok, but it's ok for other reasons. i agree, it sucks if you're raped and stuck with a kid, but a woman can go into the office and say "i was raped, i want an abortion", but is there a way to prove this? maybe she just had unprotected sex and is using rape as an excuse because she knows that will get her baby killed. even though i think a woman, or anyone for that matter, should have a choice for doing what they want with their bodies, a baby is not your body, it is a person. and they have to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. if a man and woman are not ready or prepared for having a kid, then either take lots of precautions, or don't have sex.
You can fix that by having them file a criminal report before receiving it.
One of the most disgusting practices I find are the people, who usually live in extraordinairly low income housing, get abortions on a regular baisis. Not only is it a complete waste of life, but it is an extensive cost to the taxpayers.
And Advance, that's like saying we should be for war no matter the reason. After all, it's limiting the population, and hey, Americans can benefit!
"Its the womans body, let her do with it what she wants to." Shes not the one performing the operation in most cases.
Buster
05-11-2003, 06:48 PM
THE fact of the matter is this, if your willing to consent to the pleasure of sex, then your willing (but not always able) to have a baby and care for the baby.
ABORTION IS WRONG.
I don't care what issue you bring, that you could put it up for adoption or the mother is going to kill the baby anyway. Abortion will and will always be wrong, the only reason the government hasn't outlawed it yet it is because it controls popluation and helps the economy. (and economy aspect is too complex just trust me)
But if you look at it in a different way, a female could just have sex and when ever she gets prengant she could just have an abortion.
Human kind has to learn one thing about life. If you care for your own life, then care for anothers.
Attrox
05-11-2003, 06:50 PM
If she was responsible, she would take birth control pills. Or have her partner wear a condom. If you do these small things, you won't have to worry about getting pregnant anyways, now will you?
Buster
05-11-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Advance
I'm completely for abortion. There are already way too many kids out there living in families that can't support them financially with parents who don't know how to raise them. In fact, I think we should be encouraging abortion for those who aren't ready. The population's already out of control as it is, and we shouldn't have to support all these kids. Life would be easier with more abortions.
Besides, you have to consider that, even if you believe it's the equivalent of murder--is that really any worse than a life of suffering, abuse, and poverty? I don't think it is. If I were going to live that kind of life, I'd hope my parents would have some compassion and abort me.
You would rather not existed on this earth, than face a life of possible poverty and possible suffering that you COULD change.
What exactly are you smoking do you realize what you have just spoke. GO tell that to the judge, the defense for abortion would love that.
ANd this whole thing about "its the woman's body let her to what she wants with it," than why do we out law drugs, its our bodies let us do the drugs and kill our selves! IT is only her body because it was given to her by her mother and father for giving her birth, for NOT aborting her!
GOD gave us life, and we in turn should give life to others.
Advance
05-11-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by mb90078
And Advance, that's like saying we should be for war no matter the reason. After all, it's limiting the population, and hey, Americans can benefit!
Get off your conservative high horse. It's nothing like that. I'm not saying go and kill all the new babies. I'm saying kill the unborn fetuses. They aren't alive until they're born. It's called being proactive.
The public school system and the welfare system are OVERFLOWING with poor, needy kids. And, it's a known fact that the greatest source of children in the country is unwed-mother, who often have twice as many children as your typical, married, middle-class mother. Increasing and providing abortions would help cut costs on welfare and medical aid, would lighten the load on our already failing public education system, and would curb the more than 10 million children in America who live in poverty for more than one year of their entire childhood. Abortion is good.
See, that's the problem with the abortion issue. The liberal side doesn't see the child as alive until it's born. Conservatives have some highly optimistic that at the moment of conception, life is there.
Just to fan the flames, you know what else I think we should encourage? I think we should encourage expecting parents who know they are going to have a retarded or defective child to abort it and prevent it from the misery. That'd save a lot of money in the long run, and help prevent those defective genes from spreading through the gene pool.
Waits for all the cries against Hitler Advance. :rollseyes
mb90078
05-11-2003, 09:07 PM
Yeah, so I guess they don't feel pain when they're stabbed at partial birth, which is still legal and widely defended. That must be the woman who feels the stabbing because, it is after all, her body.
I know plenty of happy, "defective" people, who enjoy life, and step up to the challange that they were given at birth. I would love for them to hear your suggestion. m
Buster
05-11-2003, 09:25 PM
I agree with you mb, I know many defective people, even alot of them my friends, there not always suffereing and are in need of lots of money for them to survive. What about when a freakin person gets hit by a car, and needs a really expensive operation to save him, would you do it, or just out law cars so we can avoid the entire thing and the HUGE cost.
Have you ever heard of an organization called Best Buddies, if your in high school you have, these are kids in your high school who are apart of this club who have mental disablties and down syndrome and they still have full lives and get jobs and some even go through college. YOu would rather kill them!
Ok, if you wanna control population growth we might as well just limit people to 1 kid per family. Because there are way tooo many huge 8 and 10 people families. But wait all of them are mentally sound, forget it lets go after the ones who have mental defects!
Whats this whole liberal conservative crap, life is life, is it a living organism if you don't kill it as a fetus and wait for it to grow in 19 months you'll have a baby, and what do we call that, life. SO life is basically just the aspect of time.
Advance
05-11-2003, 11:11 PM
You people aren't listening. A fetus is not life. Destroying it is not the same as killing a person. If we can't agree on this, then we can't ever hope to reconcile our opinions. Therefore, this discussion has no point.
mb90078
05-11-2003, 11:32 PM
First of all, whether you want to admit it or not, even if you're not going to call it human, it's certainly pre-human. It would be a life if not interferred with (and some claim it is anyway). Again, I ask you to reflect on my partial birth point.
And these people, they never would be people, if it went your way.
Since this is one of the baises of the entire debate, you cannot simply dismiss the other opinion and hope to move on.
Lord Lupus
05-12-2003, 09:53 AM
Basically, until the 'whatever' is capable of conscious thought, and isn't simply a parasite, then it is considered alive by me.
And I agree with that defective issue- honestly, no-one wants a defective child, but it's only their... what's the word... conscienmce that stops them getting rid of it, and they put themselves through all that suffering.
And Buster, WHY do most of your sentences START with a load of CAPital letters?
And GOD is a matter for ANOTHER discussion.
mb90078
05-12-2003, 06:14 PM
What is consince thought? Depending on your definition, that would mean you're ok with baby killing, outside of the womb.
Ask some people who are defective, if they would like to live a "normal" life, many will tell you no. Also many people are more accepting of people different from them. Special qualities are found in these "defectives" that aren't found in "normal" people.
i think the comment about disabled people was a little off...but anywho...
replying to mrlister from a few days ago: going through the pain, morning sickness, etc is just part of pregnancy. what about the positive emotional connections like when the baby kicks or when you finally see it when you give pregnancy? being pregnant has its ups and downs, but in the end, look what you get.
advance: i dunno about the whole "baby is not alive at this date...baby is a human at this date" business, but i feel that the fetus is a future/potential human, so killing it is basically killing a human being.
i'm really tired of the abortion issue though. just think of it this way: abortion was not always legal and around in the US. so why did someone have to bring it into the world anyway? it's just like the euthanasia crap. these are all debates that will never ever get solved and not everyone is going to be happy with the results
Attrox
05-13-2003, 06:22 PM
I'm also not understanding the population control stuff. Last time I checked, the United States had plenty of room for more people. This isn't China. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong really, I'm just wondering why people think abortion controls the population?
I never thought the United States population needed to be controled...
mb90078
05-13-2003, 09:58 PM
Regardless of whether it's a problem now, it will be, and there's nothing wrong with dealing with a problem before it's a big one. Additionally, if there wasn't a problem, why don't we just let everyone emmigrate to the US? However I do NOT think that abortion is the way to control population.
Advance
05-14-2003, 04:33 PM
You assume that life is the most valuable thing that humans possess, and I disagree. That's the reason we also disagree on the death penalty business. If you think I'm for killing babies, maybe I am. It makes no difference whether it's a baby or it's a "pre-baby." Killing it is still for the better. I guess I'm just a big, evil utiliatarian.
As for the brief euthanasia point by GINA, that's entirely different. If anyone wants to kill themself, who are we to say they can't do it?
mb90078
05-14-2003, 06:39 PM
Advance, I see a double standard. You say we shouldn't interfere with an old, sick person's decision whether to die or live, yet you think an outside source should determine the fate of a baby/pre-baby.
Advance, just out of curiosity, what do you think the point of life is?
falsharm
05-15-2003, 02:56 AM
Sorry for getting in on this one too, but some of the comments are just too funny.
First of all, as far as figuring out when “life” actually happens, that is totally dependent on the individual and what they have been taught. That is not a debate either side will win very soon, if ever. So, with that said, it makes that point moot. Let’s consider it an abortion of a future life form.
Then we get into the question of the baby’s life. Is the life the child can lead worth bringing it into the world? Who is anyone to say, and who are they to be able to tell. Statistically people born in underprivileged homes will stay underprivileged their entire lives, and will give birth to more underprivileged. There are always exceptions to this, though. I know some of you are eager to point that out.
Next is adoption. Say the family cannot take care of the child, adoption is a viable alternative, I hope obviously more attractive than the baby’s death or abandonment. The adoption system in the United States is so backwards and convoluted there are children out there who grow up and are never adopted. Sadly the statistics do not favor those who are adopted either, especially when talking about getting into a loving home and breaking from underprivilege. Again there are always exceptions to this.
If we allow abortion on the grounds of mental state, again we always find exceptions of people who do not meet the social standard of mental normalcy, deemed retarded, and still manage to accomplish more than anyone would guess (but not more than would be expected of “normal” people). It would help to keep the recirculation of genetic disorders from the gene pool, but I know a lot more “normal” people who should be bleached out of the gene pool.
When speaking about population control, the idea of the United States not needing to contribute to the control of an exponentially growing world population is ridiculous. The United States need to lead and support the world in population control efforts. China has limited its support of children only to the majority party, so in the United States that would equate to the white Christian majority. It supports multiple children in its minorities and does not mandate couples only have one child, just that the government will not support anything other than one.
Gina, I’m sorry to say, the abortion issue, like euthanasia, has always been around in the United States. Native Americans have abortion in their history before white people came here. There have always been people who would do abortions, even in the 20th Century abortions were performed, but often with a coat hanger or some such device. Is that what you want to go back to?
Also, the issue between abortion and euthanasia is extremely similar. It is about an individual’s ability to choose how their life will go. It is all about the power to determine the goals and objectives of the individual, and how they will get there. Euthanasia, like abortion, hinges on this one paradigm.
Lord Lupus
05-15-2003, 10:13 AM
Quick quote-
"Using contraception is surely mass murder! Think of all those millions of sperm who will die needlessly!"
Yes, Sperm-- The active component, and one half, of a pre-baby.
You tell me that any time you have sex, you're not killing millions of possible humans.
Advance
05-16-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by mb90078
Advance, just out of curiosity, what do you think the point of life is?
"To be yourself." I read that on some sappy something somewhere. It sounded good.
Inferno Bartron
01-02-2005, 04:34 PM
You would rather not existed on this earth, than face a life of possible poverty and possible suffering that you COULD change.
What exactly are you smoking do you realize what you have just spoke. GO tell that to the judge, the defense for abortion would love that.
ANd this whole thing about "its the woman's body let her to what she wants with it," than why do we out law drugs, its our bodies let us do the drugs and kill our selves! IT is only her body because it was given to her by her mother and father for giving her birth, for NOT aborting her!
GOD gave us life, and we in turn should give life to others.
i agree with everything you have said in this thread
Okay I copied what I said in other thread since we should post in this one continuously to round all views. Side note: I'm not totally against other's views but logically see flaws into being ALWAYS pro-life as end of this post will show that a girl may die giving birth.
Abortion is hard to debate because it ties science and ultimately moral values and/or religion. I side with the feeling that a fetus is life. It was created biologically. However I do side with those that believe abortion should be available to those who are victims of rape. The mother-to-be didn't have the choice in producing life, she would undoubtedly be forced to care for a child whose father was a criminal. It's a burden she shouldn't carry especially. Those that are Pro-Life Extrema that say this person should bear the child and then put up child for adoption, well well that's another debate. I see adoption as a nice aspect but if they claim adoption works then why are there still orphanages?
I do agree that a fetus is life. I do agree that a woman shouldn't have the choice because she finally decides she doesn't want a child of a mistake of sexual activity with a partner. Those that practice sexual activitiy that didn't want children in first place should use birth-control. However I disagree like I said above that women that got forced to sexual activity (rape) then if there wasn't a "choice" which means two ways (1. Birth or 2. Abortion). She would be forced birth of a child she didn't have a part of or was in lines of doing. I do agree that partial birth abortion is out of question anytime even for rape. I mean rape is sad event of life and most victims may have been pure virgins not even thinking of sex. To burden them with no "choice" and force birth is sad. It's like they can't do anything again--they stand still as victims by force and then they stand as mothers by law. I totally disagree that abortion is wrong there. Let those that are victims of rape (and only them) choose. But if she knew she just been raped and found pregnant it should be available but the abortion be done then. I don't think she should be wishy-washy about it. I do have a religious side everyone and in Bible it says two to make one in flesh. To procreate takes two people. In rape however it only took one the other was a victim.
Let's come up with a scenario and maybe you might change your view about it too. Here's a 10 year old girl. She get's raped by a vicious criminal who rapes her and tortures her with a knife but she survives. She finds she pregnant after all that. Because of her waif size and age she may have to get a Caesarean Section to fulfill birth. Now she is also told that the surgery may not go well because birth wasn't intended at her age plus she has damaged organs pierced from a knife from her rape. To her that means she might die because of it. She is given a 5:95 chance baby will survive with mother with damaged organs while she is bearing child. What are you to say then. Should she be forced to go through birth because abortion is illegal by law? Is a Pro-Life person going to advise this girl to become a mother? I think the girl would be very scared. She didn't even think of sex, she gets hurt in the most dire way and still lives and then you bring death closer to HER door to save a fetus that is spawned from the criminal that tried to kill her. You have to consider that possiblility there. In fact I'd like to see what others say about this in particular.
mthrlangl
01-03-2005, 01:57 PM
I'll say what I've said in other threads on other sites:
Until you're faced with the option yourself or helped a loved one face it, you can't make any sort of firm decision on the subject. Period. Up until that point, your decision/opinion is only academic.
I have faced the choice, as some of the old schoolers here know. So I can very firmly say that I'm personally pro-life but politically pro-choice. As kidlet #2 pummels me from the inside as I type, I can't understand how some people can view an incubating baby as "just a fetus," but it's not my job to teach you your morality. Everyone has to live with their own decisions.
Until you're faced with the option yourself or helped a loved one face it, you can't make any sort of firm decision on the subject. Period. Up until that point, your decision/opinion is only academic.
That is a good point. It is speculative on my part plus I am male so it doesn't directly affect me. However I have counseled rape victims in my tenure at a private school as a girl dorm proctor. This scenario in my last post is one that crossed my mind as the "far" end of using abortion to save the girl. I guess that's why abortion has been an ongoing issue to this day. Life is precious in all ways but in that academic opinion it only seems natural to go with the odds of survival for the girl.
I normaly stay out of threads that discuss topics as hot as this issue is, but for some reason I have decided to jump into this one. Partialy because this is something that I feel strongly about.
I personaly do not believe in abortion with the exception of extreem situations, however I also feel that it is absolutly none of my business. The question is way to philisophical and too much of a personal moral issue to ever be legislated.
Example:
A consenting couple decide to have sex. They do not want children so they use birth control (choose your method). Now if they were to have sex without birth control, then there is a chance that there could have been a life had all been left alone, so is birth control abortion?
It is nearly impossible to draw the line for everyone, which is why I am personally pro-life but politically pro-choice
-mth that was too well said, I had to use it.
so is birth control abortion?
To some that is a whole other aspect of pro-life in itself. And it does tend to the grounds of religion and what sex is really for in terms of procreation alone and not for pleasure. Again it does go down to personal morals and yes as we all probably agree is that this subject is a complex issue.
Scary thought is it might even involve genetic engineering in near future as now we can determine the dna in the human body and search for flaws since it has been pretty much decoded with the completion of the genome project. It might be to the point like the movie Gattaca where parents only choose the healthy gened babies and forget the rest.
This is not really something I want to get into in detail, but I will say that I am in the same club with Mthy.
I think the decision is between a woman and HER god, whatever god that may be. We live in a diverse nation, and there will never be agreement on this. The Chrisitan Coalition still insists on pushing the issue but -HELLO- not everyone in this nation worships the same god, first of all. And secondly, abortions will still happen illegally and in uncontrolled unsafe environments if R. V. W. is overturned. From a social standpoint, there are issues of poverty and family systems as well.
Wow MO, that made a lot of sense. It never will get resolved when issues get bounded from different angles like you say whether legal or illegal. But like you and MTH also say it ultimately goes to the morals of a woman who undoubtedly carries the brunt of birth (or abortion) in either case. And you two woman have pointed out completely great points that males like the rest in this thread are just viewing it from outside. I think I'm through debating abortion myself, good insights all it broadens the view to me myself.
GoingNova
01-11-2005, 09:30 PM
<touches the screen> Yeah, this one is hot!
If you don't think a fetus is a baby, go watch a sonogram.
Abortion, no matter what the circumstances, is the ending of an innocent life. You can call the baby a "fetus", you can try to justify it however you want, it remains the same: a mother, a father, both or just one, deciding that for whatever reason, they do not want to deal with the birth of a child, and so, they decide to end the child's life. A six month old "fetus" is a six month old baby. A two week old "fetus", is a two week old baby. A day old "fetus", is, a day old baby. No matter how you slice it, it is a baby, and it is innocent of any crime.
So, should we throw stones at people who have abortions? No. Could I understand why a 16 year old pregnant teenager, with no one in this world, would choose to have an abortion? Yes. I could. Could I understand how a woman who was raped decided to have an abortion? Yes, of course I could. But, and this is just one of those annoying things in life that, well, just sucks... the fact still remains, that even in those circumstances, an innocent child is being killed. Nothing anyone says can ever change that fact. You call it a fetus; I call it a baby, the fact still remains, if you leave that "fetus" alone, it becomes a baby. There is no magic that changes a "fetus" into a baby... it is a natural progression. A fetus is a human being before birth. Plain and simple.
So, a woman has an abortion, for whatever the reason. Now what? Well, my view is, we all do things in life we regret. We all make mistakes. Should I rot and burn in hell because, heaven forbid, I get drunk and kill someone while driving? So long as I have remorse, so long as I accept responsibility for my actions, and admit I was wrong, no, I don't think so. What I resent is the notion that an abortion is simply not wrong. The notion that it is a matter of choice, like picking a bed spread: a matter of preference. That is what upsets me most. It is so often said, that I as a man, have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. That is a very nice smoke screen: a very clever way of chastising me for stating the truth. When you have an abortion, you are killing an innocent human being. How can you on one hand say that someone does not have the right tell another person what do with her body, but then on the other hand say that someone has the right to terminate the life of another completley innocent person?
Innocent human beings die. It is a fact of life. “Collateral Damage” in a war is the killing of innocents. Is it wrong? Of course it is, but sometimes wrongs are done. Such is the case with abortion. Again, my biggest objection is the removal of any guilt whatsoever. At least admit you are killing an innocent. From that point you can make progress, and perhaps prevent it from happening again. Make abortion illegal? Can't be done. Not today. Impossible. I think the best way to go about it is to allow the choice, but try to convince as many people as possible to CHOOSE NOT to have an abortion. To respect the right of a baby to be born. Babies, after all, truly are innocent.
mthrlangl
01-12-2005, 08:53 AM
Innocent human beings die. It is a fact of life. “Collateral Damage” in a war is the killing of innocents. Is it wrong? Of course it is, but sometimes wrongs are done. Such is the case with abortion. Again, my biggest objection is the removal of any guilt whatsoever. At least admit you are killing an innocent. From that point you can make progress, and perhaps prevent it from happening again. Make abortion illegal? Can't be done. Not today. Impossible. I think the best way to go about it is to allow the choice, but try to convince as many people as possible to CHOOSE NOT to have an abortion. To respect the right of a baby to be born. Babies, after all, truly are innocent.
Yes, but it's not *your* job to inflict that guilt. I'd wager that most women do well enough with that on their own.
Quite frankly, my biggest complaint with the whole rotten subject is the fact that things like sex ed are being taken out of schools. If you don't know what makes a baby in the first place, how the HELL are you going to prevent it?
GoingNova
01-12-2005, 09:33 PM
Yes, but it's not *your* job to inflict that guilt. I'd wager that most women do well enough with that on their own.
I never said it was my job. By posting in this forum, you are asking members for their opinions, so I posted mine. And saying that if you have an abortion, you are ending a innocent life is a fact. Because it might feel someone guilty because they have done it, we should not say it? Maybe if more people said, people would think longer and harder about doing it!
Until you see me at a clinic lecturing people on the matter, please don't imply that I do. And so you do know, you are correct, study after study does show that most women who have abortions are scarred for life, and often carry the guilt of what they have done forever. In my opinion, Planned Parenthood, Narl, and most Pro-Choice groups do not educate women enough about the consequences of having an abortion. Perhaps if more people posted the truth, perhaps we wouldn't have so many abortions.
What makes you think sexual education is no longer being taught? It still is. I have no problem teaching children about the human body, and anatomy,but teaching teenagers how to put condemns on, which is done in many public schools, is akin to showing teenagers how snort cocaine and roll joints! And even worse, giving abortions to minors without parental consent is truly unbelievable! You can't give a kid an aspirin in school, but you can give a 16 year old an abortion without her parents knowing!
mthrlangl
01-13-2005, 08:18 AM
I never said it was my job. By posting in this forum, you are asking members for their opinions, so I posted mine. And saying that if you have an abortion, you are ending a innocent life is a fact. Because it might feel someone guilty because they have done it, we should not say it? Maybe if more people said, people would think longer and harder about doing it!
Personally, I agree with you. But not everyone thinks of an incubating baby as a life. That may be your morality and mine, but that doesn't mean it has to be everyone's.
Until you see me at a clinic lecturing people on the matter, please don't imply that I do. And so you do know, you are correct, study after study does show that most women who have abortions are scarred for life, and often carry the guilt of what they have done forever. In my opinion, Planned Parenthood, Narl, and most Pro-Choice groups do not educate women enough about the consequences of having an abortion. Perhaps if more people posted the truth, perhaps we wouldn't have so many abortions.
So, you're saying you should take Scared Woman #1 and show her pictures of aborted babies in a trash can and hand her a Bible or something? WTF would that accomplish? You can't educate people after the fact. Granted, maybe you can make more of an effort to explain the mental consequences by pre-abortion counselling, but the time to do it is not when she's sitting on the examining table.
What makes you think sexual education is no longer being taught? It still is. I have no problem teaching children about the human body, and anatomy,but teaching teenagers how to put condemns on, which is done in many public schools, is akin to showing teenagers how snort cocaine and roll joints! And even worse, giving abortions to minors without parental consent is truly unbelievable! You can't give a kid an aspirin in school, but you can give a 16 year old an abortion without her parents knowing!
Personally, I would rather someone teach my son how to put a condom on properly. Providing him with the information doesn't mean he's going to run out and go have sex. I had ready access to condoms from about 6th grade on up, and I used them as water balloons until I was 18. I knew what they were for, but it's not like I ran out when I was 12 and had sex with every man I met. You're not giving kids enough credit, and I think it was a rather Freudian slip that you spelled condom as "condemn."
It's not so much that sex ed isn't being taught, it's that it's being challenged. Look at the news of text book challenges coming out of Texas. And all the abstinence-only plans cropping up all over the US.
GoingNova
01-13-2005, 02:13 PM
"So, you're saying you should take Scared Woman #1 and show her pictures of aborted babies in a trash can and hand her a Bible or something? WTF would that accomplish? You can't educate people after the fact. Granted, maybe you can make more of an effort to explain the mental consequences by pre-abortion counselling, but the time to do it is not when she's sitting on the examining table."
Not at all. What I am saying is:
People, not just kids, should be educated on the serious consequences of sex
Woman should be made well aware of ALL options available to them, such as adoption
And most importantly, women should be made aware of the FACT that they have an abortion, in addition to the emotionally baggage of having gotten pregnant in the first place, they are MOST LIKELY going to carry ADDITIONAL baggage from having had an abortion
On Number 3, I think having a baby, and giving it up for adoption is MUCH LESS baggage then living with the guilt of having an abortion. Heck, there is even a chance than 20 years later your child might embrace you!
And, I think giving kids condemns, and showing them how to use them encourages them. Again, you "know" that a lot of kids are using drugs, should we give them needles? You "know" a lot of kids drink, how about giving them beer so they don't drink hard liquor? Just a difference of opinion I guess. I guess I just don't like the idea of someone giving my son a condemn.
Forewarning you all that I'm ready to debate Abortion again SOON (not now but soon). I do plan to keep on the perspective of the issue from the Nazgul in Washington DC when it passes in their path. It will probably be the biggest issue to pass the Supreme Court in a long time and will probably stir up a new way to debate so I'll be here again... :ut-oh: the crater will be hot!
BullCrap
07-24-2005, 12:23 PM
For the past decade, iAbortion has been a fairly big issue. I personally think it is wrong to kill a living baby when it is half way through pregnancy. It is the same as killing a normal person. But for things such as birth control, which girls can take shortly after having sex, I have no problem with, seeing how the women wouldn't be inpregnated by then.
But if you screw up, don't use protection, and find out your girlfriend is pregnant a few weeks later...well then too bad. It's your own fault, and you need to take responsibility for the child.
Though, under conditions such as rape, I think acceptions should be made. The person who is raped had no control over that, and should have the right to kill the baby if she wants to.
What are your feelings on abortion?
Me and you think alike...
No one living should be killed purposely, its just wrong.
I know woman that have had abortations, and i harp on them for doing it. its just not right for a grown woman to do that. I tell them to make sure their lover is wearing protection. They dont listen to me. so a couple of weeks later they are pregnent and they want an abortaion. I think people just take things for granted sometimes and just dont think.
I stand firmly against abortation!!
I tell them to make sure their lover is wearing protection. They dont listen to me. so a couple of weeks later they are pregnent and they want an abortaion. I think people just take things for granted sometimes and just dont think.
I stand firmly against abortation!!
Your view though leaves out rape. Is a woman going to ask her rapist to use prtoection? If she gets pregnant whose fault is that? Do you still stand firmly? Did she just take that for granted?????
Actually why not I get to a the point that it brings it down to your level. What if your sister, mother, wife, best friend, anyone really close gets raped. Do you want them to bear the child then still? Criminal minds do carry genetically, bear that in mind. (Not really the criminal mind but like temperament, intelligence, alcoholism, etc.) Are you willing to still stand firmly and have a criminal niece/nephew, sister/brother, kid, etc.?
Stonelaughter
08-09-2005, 10:12 AM
Personally, were I a woman, I think that deciding whether to abort my pregnancy would be the hardest decision I ever had to make and it would be affected mostly by my circumstances at the time.
When you start to legislate, you have to define things such as "Life" and "viable foetus" and a point where it should not be permitted etc. If you don't legislate, the decision rests where it should; with the conscience of the potential mother.
I don't think "points of law" like when the foetus becomes a baby etc should come into it; whether or not it's life at *this* point in a pregnancy, or *that* point is largely irrelevant. I think that if there are two possibilities in a lawmaking body's deliberations, and one advocates choice between two options and the other legislates only a single option, then they should choose more options for the affected individual every time. This isn't about liberal or conservative, it isn't about murder or medical procedure... it's about the effect a single decision has on people's lives. So - I move to give the adult individual as many legal choices as possible.
I would, however, legislate AROUND the issue. For instance, I feel that a point in pregnancy should be chosen beyond which abortion is not a viable choice in law. This is a sensible medical and moral line to take. I would also legislate around "serial abortion". If a girl or woman is so ridiculously stupid to make the same mistake more than once, knowing the psychological damage, hurt and loss of self-esteem it caused the first time, then I believe that the law should impose a sort of "supervised parenthood" status upon her, along with supervised long term contraception like the implant - regardless of any side effects it may cause. Involuntary pregnancies (e.g. from rape, abuse etc) should never EVER be forced upon the victim to term; the choice of a termination should always be available - up to the legal time limit (which gives a reasonably long time to decide).
Then there're the times when contraception simply didn't work - even the contraceptive pill or mini-pill isn't 100% certain. Condoms break, morning after pills aren't taken in time... any number of factors can contribute to an unwanted pregnancy.
So - I'm firmly for letting the woman (or couple) choose the future course of her own life - any law which limits her choices to one (having made a mistake or otherwise) is anti-democratic and unconstitutional in any country. However I would make very carefully written laws to limit the circumstances in which an abortion was legal. I would also make sure that the penalties for "back street abortionists" and their activities were extreme; extending to life imprisonment for people who caused (or could potentially have caused) deaths through infection because of bad procedures or insufficiently clean premises and care. Women who request abortion more than once within a set period should (by law) enter a program of care which addresses all the issues in her life and gives her back her self-worth - the aim being to stop any more unwanted pregnancies.
One last point; showing people pictures of aborted foetus' in an attempt to shock them into a pro-life stance is crass, ineffective and downright offensive... The pictures are upsetting and sad, even disgusting - but they change my stance not one jot. It's like showing pictures of road accidents and their victims to try and convince me not to drive. The car crash victims were someone's loved ones; and similarly the aborted foetus was a PART of someone - I can't begin to guess the pain that woman went through to make the decision she made - seeing that would about destroy her.
The pain and anguish of having had an abortion stays with a woman for the rest of her life - but at least her pain doesn't discolour a child's life as well.
Well put Tom! You should get into legislation instead of computing since you naturally do have a knack to get the point!
I do agree with you about options given especially to those who involuntarly received a pregnancy. A time limit is the best course of action for a law as it is the most important aspect of when a fetus becomes developed because time is of the essence there.
Mar Zimmer
03-02-2007, 08:04 PM
For the past decade, iAbortion has been a fairly big issue. I personally think it is wrong to kill a living baby when it is half way through pregnancy. It is the same as killing a normal person. But for things such as birth control, which girls can take shortly after having sex, I have no problem with, seeing how the women wouldn't be inpregnated by then.
But if you screw up, don't use protection, and find out your girlfriend is pregnant a few weeks later...well then too bad. It's your own fault, and you need to take responsibility for the child.
Though, under conditions such as rape, I think acceptions should be made. The person who is raped had no control over that, and should have the right to kill the baby if she wants to.
What are your feelings on abortion?
I absolutely agree with you. But along with cases of rape, I think that if there is a case of incest, an abortion might be an acceptable option.
rosebud
03-03-2007, 05:55 AM
I agree that if two people who are not married have a child together they are responsible for that child. If the girl is too young to take care of this child then instead of getting rid of it, have the baby full term and then give it up for adoption. Their are many couples who can't have a child and adoption is their only route.
Now If the girl was raped and became pregnant why kill the child? This child has every right to live. You would kill this living being because you were raped? Have the baby full term then give it up for adoption.
As you can see I don't believe in abortion.
Mar Zimmer
03-04-2007, 01:34 PM
Actually, now that you've put it that way I can agree.
Now I say abortion is wrong no matter what. I forgot about adoption.
meezercat
03-04-2007, 02:16 PM
What if a 12 year old is raped and gets pregnant? A 12 year old girl is not physically equipped for a pregnancy.
I believe there are no absolutes.
mthrlangl
03-04-2007, 02:19 PM
I believe there are no absolutes.
Amen.
And what if the child would be so horribly deformed or diseased that it would only live for hours after being born? Or if it puts the mother in mortal danger?
Mar Zimmer
03-04-2007, 05:09 PM
Hmm... There is that.
Like if the child is like the girl on the show "Born without a face", and will never be able of leading a normal life...
I really don't know.
Panache87
03-04-2007, 10:58 PM
I am totally pro-choice on this issue. (and soupers, please don't club me for this! lol) I believe it is up to the woman herself to decide; If she wants an abortion, let her get an abortion. If she wants to keep the baby, let her keep the baby. And here are my reasons to back it up:
Firstly, what if a young girl, of say... maybe 12 or 13?, gets pregnant (by either rape or consentual sex), there would be no way that this girl, still a child herself, would be able to provide the financial support necessary to take care of a baby, since a girl that young doesn't usually have a job yet. Should this young girl feel compelled to take care of a child that she cannot support? Of course not! Girls shouldn't be forced to have children when they themselves are still children. But, if they want the child, let them, although it really would be a bad choice at such a young age, since girls that young really aren't natually made to endure pregnancy, unlike that of a woman in her 20's or 30's.
And what if a woman/girl gets raped? Just going through a rape-induced pregnancy would be rough on her (as if pregnancy itself wasn't already hard enough), and the thought of how she got pregnant in the first place would be very troubling to her. But, if she wants to have that baby, it's her choice completely.
Or, let's say a woman becomes pregnant, but she, at the moment, might be going through a very rough time- like a bad time with her husband/boyfriend, nervous breakdown, unemployed, or just generally a really bad part of her life, or even being very mentally unstable. At that moment, she might not feel as though having a child would be the best option during that particular time, because she would not want to put the child though all that trouble.
Or, like Mth said, what if the baby is born extremely deformed or with a bad disease? Or if the woman was in danger herself?
Also, I believe that a woman should be able to do whatever she wants to her own body. Nobody should have to tell her what or what not to do to it. It's her body, and no one should make such choices for her.
I believe that it is totally up to the woman, or girl for that matter, whether or not she wants to get an abortion. It should not be made illegal. Let the woman decide for herself what she wants to do to her body! I just think it's a very personal issue, and should be by choice. Nobody should force a woman to get an abortion, nor should anyone force her to have a child.
danceswithfish
03-14-2007, 12:53 AM
When it's all said and done...it boils down to this, "If you are against abortion...don't have one"
I agree that it is COMPLETELY up to the person (woman) who is pregnant. IT SHOULD NEVER!!! BE USED AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL!!! Conception should be a forethought not an after-thought.
Panache87
03-14-2007, 08:19 PM
When it's all said and done...it boils down to this, "If you are against abortion...don't have one"
I agree that it is COMPLETELY up to the person (woman) who is pregnant. IT SHOULD NEVER!!! BE USED AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL!!! Conception should be a forethought not an after-thought.
100% agreed with every word you said.